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At 10:23 PM 3/22/02 -0800, DC & Alice Allen wrote:\
>It probably wouldn't hurt.  I've never given this matter a second thought, 
>when it comes to my mailing lists.  I've never had anyone ask about having 
>a query removed.


I think we are going to defer the recommendation of adding specific 
disclaimers by section of the recommendations for now.  It might be best to 
come up with a generic disclaimer that both SCs and LCs can use as a notice 
on their pages rather than recommending one for each individual link or 
section.  I've removed it from the queries section for now.

-Teresa

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<x-flowed>
At 06:26 PM 3/22/02 -0500, Jan Cortez wrote:
>Agree with doing the disclaimer - but I think we should be able to design a
>disclaimer to include everything - as in a link to a page of disclaimers.
>Maybe do a *see disclaimer* by each item.


I'm thinking more along the lines of a small text box they could add that 
could say something like "Some links will take you to pages that are not 
part of USGenWeb. The USGenWeb Project [or their own web page if they want] 
has no control over these sites and cannot vouch for their reliability...etc."

-Teresa

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From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 19:53:15 2002
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Subject: Project Logo Placement Concern
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<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>Hello Teresa,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>Regarding the discussion of 
the placement of logos (excerpts copied below) with particular focus on the 
statement ****<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000> limited to the "home" 
or "main" page of the local website.****</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>- - - some people interpret 
this to mean they can **<STRONG>name</STRONG>** a unique (separate)&nbsp;page at 
their site "Home Page" or "Main Page", place the logo on that page, and then 
burry the page amongst the many that make up a web site.&nbsp; In some cases, 
unless you click on a link titled "Home Page", you would never view the 
logo.&nbsp; Don't we really mean the web site&nbsp;**ENTRY</FONT><FONT 
face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>** page?&nbsp; In other words, the page 
that is linked to from the state site or other web pages that are linked to the 
county site?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>The working document dated 
March 24 could read:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>Current:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Requirements for Local Coordinators:<BR><BR>1. All websites shall include 
prominent display of The USGenWeb Project logo on the home page. <BR>You will 
find official USGenWeb Project logos at &lt;URL&gt;&nbsp; You are recommended to 
display this logo<BR>near the top of your home page.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>Proposed new:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
color=#000000>Requirements for Local Coordinators:<BR><BR>1. All websites shall 
include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project logo <FONT 
face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>***</FONT></FONT>on the county web site 
entry page, defined as the page that opens when accessed from the county state 
page or other web pages that may link to the county site.***&nbsp; <FONT 
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000>You will find official USGenWeb Project 
logos at &lt;URL&gt;&nbsp; You are recommended to display this logo<BR>near the 
top of your home page.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>I appreciate your 
consideration of my thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>Dave Koester<BR>Barrington, 
Illinois<BR>dwkoester@earthlink.net<BR>**************************************************<BR>**Coordinator 
- Allen County, Ohio - OHGenWeb Project**<BR><A 
href="http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohallen/allmain.html">http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohallen/allmain.html</A><BR>**Coordinator 
- Hancock County, Ohio - OHGenWeb Project**<BR><A 
href="http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohhancoc/hanmain.html">http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohhancoc/hanmain.html</A><BR>***************************************************<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080>--- <FONT 
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000>&gt;As part of this discussion, we also 
discussed logos.&nbsp; Project members are <BR>&gt;required to prominently 
display an official USGenWeb Project logo, but <BR>&gt;"prominent" is not 
defined.&nbsp; A Committee member noted that her state <BR>&gt;defines 
"prominent" as "near the top" and this has worked well in that 
<BR>&gt;state.---</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>--- &gt;A recommendation that the logo be placed near the top of the 
<BR>&gt;LC's main page is suggested and agreed to by a majority of Committee 
<BR>&gt;members. This recommendation is limited to the "home" or "main" page of 
the <BR>&gt;local website. ---<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From ???@??? Sun Mar 24 07:48:36 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Suggestion re: mailing lists
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<x-flowed>

This suggestion is from Kathy Heidel, one of my colleagues on the Board:


>    A suggestion and not particularly an EC one but more towards the
>Guidelines Com. Why not require that the CC's and other volunteers be to be
>subbed to the Regional lists. This has been an ongoing problem with  all
>USGW P announcements and such. The Regional lists were set up for this
>purpose and if mandatory then the SC's would not have to disseminate this
>information to their CC's. Just an idea
>Kathy


Personally, I think this idea is a non-starter.  Historically, there has 
been a lot of resistance to requiring Project members to subscribe to more 
than a minimum of mailing lists.   As it stands now, they are required to 
join two, their state list and the announce-only EC mailing list, and even 
that has been an issue for some people.   Requiring people who may have 
projects in more than one region to join up to four more lists will not go 
over very well.

I'm not even sure I'd recommend adding the regional mail lists as 
recommended lists.  The regional lists are rarely used for anything, to my 
knowledge.  This may be because the regional divisions in the Project are 
essentially meaningless administrative creations, and there just isn't that 
much that's of interest solely to one region or other.  They have very 
small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting 
anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list 
members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things 
to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project 
committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.

Comments?

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

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From ???@??? Sun Mar 24 08:23:56 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Working document
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<x-flowed>
I have posted a new version of the working document at:

http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

I was reviewing the bylaws last night and made some slight adjustments to 
the text of the working document to match wording in the bylaws.  As noted 
previously, I also removed temporarily the disclaimer regarding 
non-LC-controlled query systems in favor of discussing a more 
broadly-applicable disclaimer that LC can include on their 
pages.  Otherwise, you've seen it all before. <g>

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Guidelines Committee weekly report for the week ending March 23, 2002
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Permission to forward as appropriate is granted.


GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending March 23 2002

===

On March 17, the weekly report is submitted to the Project and three 
comments are received from Project members.  One of these addresses a 
grammatical error in the working document, which is corrected.  One 
concerns the management of state mailing lists and is deferred until the 
Committee is discussing State Coordinator guidelines.  The third contains 
several questions, as follows:

1.  "The suggested requirement that Local Coordinators provide a link on 
their home page to the main USGenWeb Project page is a new requirement, 
correct?  I don't recall hearing anyone make suggestions along this line 
prior to this report, so I am curious as to whether this is something that 
most Project members want...if compliance with a logo requirement is not 
currently being attained, how will Local Coordinators react to an 
additional link requirement?"

The Committee discussed this comment for a couple of days.  We agree that 
this would constitute a new requirement, but feel that it would not put an 
undue burden on the LCs, nor would it unduly infringe on a LC's right to 
determine their page design.  Providing a link back to the USGenWeb Project 
not only makes sense, since the LC's page is part of the Project, but would 
be a boon to visiting genealogists.  We have thus decided to keep this in 
as a new requirement.

As part of this discussion, we also discussed logos.  Project members are 
required to prominently display an official USGenWeb Project logo, but 
"prominent" is not defined.  A Committee member noted that her state 
defines "prominent" as "near the top" and this has worked well in that 
state.  Another Committee member discussed the proliferation of banners, 
ads, and other logos on Project web pages. After some discussion, several 
Committee members noted that in many cases these banners and ads might be 
required by the hosting server, and in any case there is little that can be 
done about it without getting into very subjective areas of design and 
creativity.  A recommendation that the logo be placed near the top of the 
LC's main page is suggested and agreed to by a majority of Committee 
members. This recommendation is limited to the "home" or "main" page of the 
local website.

"2. Probably not important, but I couldn't figure out what the 
contradiction referred to by the following is -- State Mail List: It was 
noted that the current requirement for CCs to join a state mailing list 
contradicts a requirement in the current guidelines for State Coordinators."

A Committee member provided the answer for this question:  "the 
contradiction is in the way the sentence was written. SCs are required to 
maintain a state mail list and have all LCs subscribed. The CC previous 
guidelines indicated that the State might "NOT" have a mail list and if 
that were so they should contact their SC."

The Committee will revise the Guidelines to address this discrepancy.

"3. Regarding disclaimers that USGenWeb is not affiliated with non-USGenWeb 
message systems, I'm not sure the definition of "non-USGenWeb" is entirely 
clear.  For example, is a query system maintained by the local genealogy 
society in the county which I coordinate a "non-USGenWeb" system?  Would I 
need a public disclaimer that USGenWeb is not affiliated with the local 
gnealogy society?  Are Query Express/Surname Helper "non-USGenWeb" systems?"

There was much discussion on this issue, including a description of Query 
Express and a description of the extent of control LCs may exercise if they 
manage Ancestry message boards.  The Chair of the Committee pointed out 
that the USGenWeb itself does not have a query system and that even a 
system managed entirely by a LC is technically a "non-USGenWeb 
system."   The Chair thus suggests changing the wording of the 
recommendation to read "If you choose to use a query system that is managed 
by someone other than yourself, such as a commercial company, its is 
recommended that...etc."  The general consensus is to leave the disclaimer 
in as a recommendation only to LCs and to word it more generally to refer 
to query systems that are not controlled directly by the LC.

After further discussion, the recommendation to add a disclaimer regarding 
off-site query systems was temporarily removed from the working 
document.  As noted above, most Committee members are in favor of 
recommending to LCs that they include such a disclaimer, but it has been 
suggested that since LCs link to many places and resources that are out of 
their control, a more generic disclaimer that a LC could add to their home 
page might be more suitable.  The Committee will explore this issue further.

===

The current version of the working document is posted 
at:  http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

Please address comments to Teresa Lindquist <merope@radix.net>

-Teresa Lindquist
Chair, Guidelines Committee
Representative At Large, USGenWeb Project
merope@radix.net

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From: Holly Timm <hollyft@bright.net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Suggestion re: mailing lists
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<x-flowed>
At 07:45 AM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:

>This suggestion is from Kathy Heidel, one of my colleagues on the Board:
>
>
>>    A suggestion and not particularly an EC one but more towards the
>>Guidelines Com. Why not require that the CC's and other volunteers be to be
>>subbed to the Regional lists. This has been an ongoing problem with  all
>>USGW P announcements and such. The Regional lists were set up for this
>>purpose and if mandatory then the SC's would not have to disseminate this
>>information to their CC's. Just an idea
>>Kathy

Kathy is in error, the Regional lists were not set up for Project 
Announcements although it was one item. They were set up for a 
communication/discussion channel for the Representatives and their 
constitutents. They were not planned nor thought of as ever being a 
required list. Teresa is correct that often there is not much traffic but 
the option is there and available. That it is not better used is up to the 
Reps and the constituents.

Holly Timm (not as NC I guess but because I was part of setting up the 
lists way back then)



</x-flowed>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] Suggestion re: mailing lists
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Many of our CCs object to even the state mailing list which has very
little traffic. I don't understand it particularly they do. Requiring
subscriptions to more lists would be an uphill battle and, frankly, I
don't know what the point of subscribing to a regional list would be
anyway.

Cheryl Rothwell
LoganCty@mindspring.com
www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al


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Would it not be more effective to have the SC's add an e-mail address to
the accept file of their State list. I am sure the EC could get a e-mail
address for this. Then set up a mail program to post to all State list.
Richard...

merope wrote:
> 
> This suggestion is from Kathy Heidel, one of my colleagues on the Board:
> 
> >    A suggestion and not particularly an EC one but more towards the
> >Guidelines Com. Why not require that the CC's and other volunteers be to be
> >subbed to the Regional lists. This has been an ongoing problem with  all
> >USGW P announcements and such. The Regional lists were set up for this
> >purpose and if mandatory then the SC's would not have to disseminate this
> >information to their CC's. Just an idea
> >Kathy
> 
> Personally, I think this idea is a non-starter.  Historically, there has
> been a lot of resistance to requiring Project members to subscribe to more
> than a minimum of mailing lists.   As it stands now, they are required to
> join two, their state list and the announce-only EC mailing list, and even
> that has been an issue for some people.   Requiring people who may have
> projects in more than one region to join up to four more lists will not go
> over very well.
> 
> I'm not even sure I'd recommend adding the regional mail lists as
> recommended lists.  The regional lists are rarely used for anything, to my
> knowledge.  This may be because the regional divisions in the Project are
> essentially meaningless administrative creations, and there just isn't that
> much that's of interest solely to one region or other.  They have very
> small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting
> anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list
> members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things
> to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project
> committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> -Teresa
> merope@radix.net

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Sun Mar 24 17:08:26 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 11:15 AM 3/24/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>Would it not be more effective to have the SC's add an e-mail address to
>the accept file of their State list. I am sure the EC could get a e-mail
>address for this. Then set up a mail program to post to all State list.
>Richard...

This is an excellent idea, if we could get all 50 states to agree to it.

-Teresa


>merope wrote:
> >
> > This suggestion is from Kathy Heidel, one of my colleagues on the Board:
> >
> > >    A suggestion and not particularly an EC one but more towards the
> > >Guidelines Com. Why not require that the CC's and other volunteers be 
> to be
> > >subbed to the Regional lists. This has been an ongoing problem with  all
> > >USGW P announcements and such. The Regional lists were set up for this
> > >purpose and if mandatory then the SC's would not have to disseminate this
> > >information to their CC's. Just an idea
> > >Kathy
> >
> > Personally, I think this idea is a non-starter.  Historically, there has
> > been a lot of resistance to requiring Project members to subscribe to more
> > than a minimum of mailing lists.   As it stands now, they are required to
> > join two, their state list and the announce-only EC mailing list, and even
> > that has been an issue for some people.   Requiring people who may have
> > projects in more than one region to join up to four more lists will not go
> > over very well.
> >
> > I'm not even sure I'd recommend adding the regional mail lists as
> > recommended lists.  The regional lists are rarely used for anything, to my
> > knowledge.  This may be because the regional divisions in the Project are
> > essentially meaningless administrative creations, and there just isn't that
> > much that's of interest solely to one region or other.  They have very
> > small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting
> > anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list
> > members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things
> > to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project
> > committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > -Teresa
> > merope@radix.net
>
>--
>
>
>       Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator
>       Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

</x-flowed>
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I thought that was what we were here for?  To come up with Guidelines that
were good for USGenWeb and more uniformly fair to all? There is one thing
to remember, anything we give one group, we have to take from another
group. Richard... 

merope wrote:
> 
> At 11:15 AM 3/24/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
> >Would it not be more effective to have the SC's add an e-mail address to
> >the accept file of their State list. I am sure the EC could get a e-mail
> >address for this. Then set up a mail program to post to all State list.
> >Richard...
> 
> This is an excellent idea, if we could get all 50 states to agree to it.
> 
> -Teresa
> 
> >merope wrote:
> > >
> > > This suggestion is from Kathy Heidel, one of my colleagues on the Board:
> > >
> > > >    A suggestion and not particularly an EC one but more towards the
> > > >Guidelines Com. Why not require that the CC's and other volunteers be
> > to be
> > > >subbed to the Regional lists. This has been an ongoing problem with  all
> > > >USGW P announcements and such. The Regional lists were set up for this
> > > >purpose and if mandatory then the SC's would not have to disseminate this
> > > >information to their CC's. Just an idea
> > > >Kathy
> > >
> > > Personally, I think this idea is a non-starter.  Historically, there has
> > > been a lot of resistance to requiring Project members to subscribe to more
> > > than a minimum of mailing lists.   As it stands now, they are required to
> > > join two, their state list and the announce-only EC mailing list, and even
> > > that has been an issue for some people.   Requiring people who may have
> > > projects in more than one region to join up to four more lists will not go
> > > over very well.
> > >
> > > I'm not even sure I'd recommend adding the regional mail lists as
> > > recommended lists.  The regional lists are rarely used for anything, to my
> > > knowledge.  This may be because the regional divisions in the Project are
> > > essentially meaningless administrative creations, and there just isn't that
> > > much that's of interest solely to one region or other.  They have very
> > > small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting
> > > anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list
> > > members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things
> > > to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project
> > > committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
> > >
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > -Teresa
> > > merope@radix.net
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >       Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator
> >       Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Sun Mar 24 18:57:16 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 01:00 PM 3/24/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:

>I thought that was what we were here for?  To come up with Guidelines that
>were good for USGenWeb and more uniformly fair to all? There is one thing
>to remember, anything we give one group, we have to take from another
>group. Richard...

Yes, that is what we are here for.  And I do think your idea is a good one. 
But if even one SC fails to allow this system, then the EC is right  back 
where it is now.  And since I know there are SCs who will not allow it I 
think it is unlikely to be succesful.  The best we can do is propose it and 
if a majority of the members of this Committee like it, it can be added to 
our recommendations.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 05:12 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>At 01:00 PM 3/24/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>
>>I thought that was what we were here for?  To come up with Guidelines that
>>were good for USGenWeb and more uniformly fair to all? There is one thing
>>to remember, anything we give one group, we have to take from another
>>group. Richard...
>
>Yes, that is what we are here for.  And I do think your idea is a good 
>one. But if even one SC fails to allow this system, then the EC is 
>right  back where it is now.  And since I know there are SCs who will not 
>allow it I think it is unlikely to be succesful.  The best we can do is 
>propose it and if a majority of the members of this Committee like it, it 
>can be added to our recommendations.
>
>-Teresa

Even if only a few states choose to do this it would improve the 
communication level. I am on several state lists that try to be good and 
prompt about forwarding such announcements but each and every one of them 
miss or delay sometimes. AS SC of NYGenWeb, I would be more than happy to 
have someone from the EC on my accept list to post such election 
announcements but I agree with Teresa that getting all to do so would be 
difficult. (Some would probably need it explained to them how to add an 
address to the accept list, not all SC's are mail list proficient.)

Holly (with her SC hat on)



</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
Since we seem to have good agreement on the "must have" items in the 
Guidelines, lets move on to a new area: things we would like to see 
recommended or suggested but not required.

The first one of these in the current Guidelines is lookups.  Those of you 
around in prehistoric times may remember that having a "lookups" page was a 
requirement; it was changed to a recommendation after copyright concerns 
were mentioned.  The language in the current guidelines is as follows:

"Every page should provide some basic research help for their county. For 
instance, many of the county coordinators 
have                                 provided a list of names, addresses 
and phone numbers for the county court clerk, library, and genealogical 
and/or historical societies. Many have also provided a bibliography page 
showing the reference books available for their county. [lookups] should be 
offered if you or your volunteers have received permission to do so from 
the book's author or publisher or the reference books you have available 
meet the [copyright policies] of The USGenWeb Project."

Words in [brackets] are links.  The link for "lookups" goes to this definition:

"Lookups, on the other hand, is a place to list off-line resources you have 
available THAT YOU ARE WILLING to look in for folks. The county 
coordinator, once again, is not obligated to do any lookups for folks, but 
simply to provide a forum where people who are interested in the county and 
have materials may make contact and provide information to others who are 
searching. In many counties, the county coordinator lists themselves in the 
lookups list, but you shouldn't feel obligated to do lookups for the county 
you host. The lookups section of your county page should become a 
"gathering place" for people researching in your county."

The link for "copyright policies" goes 
here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is 
probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright 
policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?

However, the rest of it should be addressed by us.  I don't know about the 
rest of you, but I have a _very_ heavily utilized set of lookup volunteers 
at my counties and I would like to see this type of resource remain a part 
of USGenWeb.

So please comment both on the recommendation to provide lookups and county 
resources and the definition of "lookups".

Thanks!

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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Not really.  I wasn't even aware there were regional mail lists (& I've been with the Project since July 1996) until a few months ago, and never did get around to signing up on them.  My SC's are pretty good about forwarding anything important to the --Gen-L lists so I don't think I've missed anything.

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/24/02 at 7:45 AM merope wrote:

<snip>  They have very 
>small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting 
>anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list 
>members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things 
>to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project 
>committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net



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what? I was automatically subbed on the regional list when it was
created for the NW group. Been on ever since.

David

DC & Alice Allen wrote:
> 
> Not really.  I wasn't even aware there were regional mail lists (& I've been with the Project since July 1996) until a few months ago, and never did get around to signing up on them.  My SC's are pretty good about forwarding anything important to the --Gen-L lists so I don't think I've missed anything.
> 
> Alice A
> USGenWeb Project CC for
> 
> Marshall Co., KS
> Geauga Co., OH
> Seneca Co., OH
> Clark Co., WA
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 3/24/02 at 7:45 AM merope wrote:
> 
> <snip>  They have very
> >small subscription rates and very low traffic.  In my experience, posting
> >anything to my regional lists that I think may of be interest to the list
> >members usually gets several responses telling me not to post such things
> >to the list [for instances, soliciting volunteers for Project
> >committees.]  So I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
> >
> >Comments?
> >
> >-Teresa
> >merope@radix.net

From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 06:21:55 2002
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I think the pages should have basic information -- what's the point of
having the pages if they don't provide information? 

I wouldn't require a lookup page but don't object to having it
encouraged. The copyright issue is a problem. Lately I've had problems
with people who tend to ignore copyright. It's such a complex issue and
it may change again this year as the Supreme Court looks at the 'Bono'
law. Everyone in genealogy seems to be an 'expert' but the attorneys run
screaming in the other direction. I think it scares CCs. I've been
inclined to encourage researchers to ask each other for lookups on the
mailing list -- bypassing the issue of 'advertising' to do lookups in
copyrighted materials on the web pages.

Cheryl




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>>(Some would probably need it explained to them how to add an address
to the accept list, not all SC's are mail list proficient.)

That's scary.

Cheryl


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Holly I have to agree with you. As an SC I try to post the Items I believe
my CC should or do need to know. Plus I have two ASC's that do the same
thing. Between the three of us we do a pretty good job, but some items may
slip by. The biggest complaint about being subscribed to State list by CC's
is the extra traffic they create. However if one wants to be apart of
something there are some things that one needs too understand and accept. 

My original thought was that the EC establish a list that mailed to all
State mandatory list. The reason for putting that e-mail list on accept
only was that know one at EC would receive any traffic back from list. That
both for security of State list, and so that EC didn't have to put up with
regular list traffic. I would also expect EC not allow just anyone to post
to the State list. The EC should also be informed to keep posting to
minimum. Larry understands this and it could be explained to EC secretary. 

Now as to whether we make this mandatory?  I Believe that voting is a
right! However voters have some responsible to exercise that right. If they
are so against the EC being able to communicate with them, all we can do is
try our best to see that they are informed. We can not force the horse to
water. Richard...   

Holly Timm wrote:
> 
> At 05:12 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
> >At 01:00 PM 3/24/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
> >
> >>I thought that was what we were here for?  To come up with Guidelines that
> >>were good for USGenWeb and more uniformly fair to all? There is one thing
> >>to remember, anything we give one group, we have to take from another
> >>group. Richard...
> >
> >Yes, that is what we are here for.  And I do think your idea is a good
> >one. But if even one SC fails to allow this system, then the EC is
> >right  back where it is now.  And since I know there are SCs who will not
> >allow it I think it is unlikely to be succesful.  The best we can do is
> >propose it and if a majority of the members of this Committee like it, it
> >can be added to our recommendations.
> >
> >-Teresa
> 
> Even if only a few states choose to do this it would improve the
> communication level. I am on several state lists that try to be good and
> prompt about forwarding such announcements but each and every one of them
> miss or delay sometimes. AS SC of NYGenWeb, I would be more than happy to
> have someone from the EC on my accept list to post such election
> announcements but I agree with Teresa that getting all to do so would be
> difficult. (Some would probably need it explained to them how to add an
> address to the accept list, not all SC's are mail list proficient.)
> 
> Holly (with her SC hat on)

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

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Holly gives HTML lessons.  Maybe we can get her to give mailing list
lessons? <G>

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> >>(Some would probably need it explained to them how to add an address
> to the accept list, not all SC's are mail list proficient.)
> 
> That's scary.
> 
> Cheryl

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

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At 06:07 PM 03/24/2002, you wrote:

<snip>

>So please comment both on the recommendation to provide lookups and county 
>resources and the definition of "lookups".
>
>Thanks!
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net


I hope we retain the lookup page recommendation. The resources provided on my
pages are well used and are supported by volunteers interested in the areas.

Perhaps the wording on the guideline page could be changed to read something
like the following.
++++
Lookups, on the other hand, is a place to list off-line resources
pertaining to
your locality that lookup volunteers will use to answer questions from
researchers. The local coordinator, once again, is not obligated to do any
lookups for researchers, but simply provide a forum where volunteers who are
interested in the local area and have resources, may be listed as contacts.
Upon request, these lookup volunteers will provide information to researchers
from the resources available to them. In many areas , the local host lists
themselves in the lookups list, but you shouldn't feel obligated to do lookups
for the county you host.


Don


From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 06:21:56 2002
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I am in favor of retaining the recommendation to provide lookups in county resources.  

My definition of "lookups" is looking up a name in your resource and providing that information, or if it is very lengthy, a "summary" of that information.  It should be reasonable--no "every Smith in XX county" type requests, and that should be clearly spelled out on the lookup page.  Obviously copyright needs to be observed.  

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA  

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/24/02 at 7:07 PM merope wrote:

<snip>
>
>So please comment both on the recommendation to provide lookups and county 
>resources and the definition of "lookups".




From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 06:21:56 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Suggestion re: mailing lists
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I like the idea of the EC being on the mailing list accept list for the 
state.  If the EC is allowed to do that I also think they should put an EC at 
the beginning of their subject.

> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 06:21:56 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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Personally I feel that it should be a must to list county resources such as: 
Libraries, Historical Societies, Genealogical Societies, and county sources 
for certificates.
(I have been to out of state pages with no local info and no lookups 
possibilies.  Which also made it difficult for me to even write to the county 
for information.  Sure I can find it elsewhere on the web, but defeats the 
purpose of USGenWeb bringing information together)

LOOKUPS only work if the coordinator has the volunteers.  So, if the county 
has a volunteer, Lookups should be for facts only (birth, death, marriage, 
internments etc.)
Lookups in creative works should be for confirmation that the name is in the 
work and where to purchase.  Only facts can be pulled from a creative work.  
The exception, of course, being the old books.
Even sharing facts from resources should be limited to a reasonable amount 
(2-3 names with facts)  Fair use

The databases I use don't mind if I share two or three facts, but not large 
quantities and they don't want my replies listed in a mailing list or message 
board where more than one person can see the answer and benefit from it.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 06:36:25 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 05:48 AM 3/25/02 -0500, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:

>I like the idea of the EC being on the mailing list accept list for the
>state.  If the EC is allowed to do that I also think they should put an EC at
>the beginning of their subject.


Lets defer further discussion of this issue until we are discussing the SC 
guidelines revisions.  I think the discussion is drifting into areas not 
within our scope.

Thanks!

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>The link for "copyright policies" goes 
>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is 
>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright 
>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?

As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for the 
committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and broken 
links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or summarized 
very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this 
morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant 
problems with that linked copyright page.

Holly

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From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 09:28 PM 3/24/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:


>I hope we retain the lookup page recommendation. The resources provided on my
>pages are well used and are supported by volunteers interested in the areas.

I agree.  I think we should split what is now "county resource page and 
lookups" into two separate items, "lookups" and "local resources".  For 
"local" in the last one, LCs could substitute whatever word is suitable: 
city, county, parish, township, etc.

I also think we should recommend that the page at: 
http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the 
information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's not 
very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click 
to see the definitions.

>Perhaps the wording on the guideline page could be changed to read something
>like the following.
>++++
>Lookups, on the other hand, is a place to list off-line resources
>pertaining to
>your locality that lookup volunteers will use to answer questions from
>researchers. The local coordinator, once again, is not obligated to do any
>lookups for researchers, but simply provide a forum where volunteers who are
>interested in the local area and have resources, may be listed as contacts.
>Upon request, these lookup volunteers will provide information to researchers
>from the resources available to them. In many areas , the local host lists
>themselves in the lookups list, but you shouldn't feel obligated to do lookups
>for the county you host.
>

My suggested wording for "lookups" would go something like this:

"Local Coordinators may to provide lookups in books, records, or other 
documents that are not available online, provided the source is 1) not 
copyrighted; or 2) permission to do lookups has been obtained from the 
copyright holder.  Lookups may be provided by the Local Coordinator or by 
other volunteers who are willing to do searches in resources that they 
own.   If you are not sure if a work is copyrighted, please visit the 
[USGenWeb Project copyright policy] page, where you will find an extensive 
discussion of current copyright law and suggestions for obtaining 
permission from copyright holders to do lookups from their work."

I don't much like our current copyright and think it should be updated, but 
that is outside our scope and I think as long as it exists as policy of 
USGW, volunteers should be directed to it.

My suggested wording for "local resources"  would go something like this:

"Local Coordinators are strongly recommended to provide a list of resources 
available to researchers in their locality. This list should include but is 
not limited to the names, addresses, email addresses and websites of local 
genealogical and historical societies, public libraries, regional societies 
that may contain records for your location, museums, churches, county 
clerks or courthouse, state archives or libraries, etc [list can be 
expanded].  It may also include local persons who will do searches of 
locally available records for a fee.  The resource page may also include 
lists of publications about the area."

That's my thinking so far!

-Teresa
merope@radix.net





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Some/many CCs have problems with local genealogical societies and
lookups. Local genealogy societies frequently claim copyright on
materials that cannot be copyrighted. I don't have these problems but
there have been some bitter battles, threats of lawsuits and such, in
some counties. The CCs don't feel it is worth the hassle. I don't object
to a suggestion but I object to a requirement.

I think Cheryl is correct in what the limitations of lookup should be:
LOOKUPS only work if the coordinator has the volunteers.  So, if the
county 
has a volunteer, Lookups should be for facts only (birth, death,
marriage, 
internments etc.)
Lookups in creative works should be for confirmation that the name is in
the 
work and where to purchase.  Only facts can be pulled from a creative
work.  
The exception, of course, being the old books.
Even sharing facts from resources should be limited to a reasonable
amount 
(2-3 names with facts)  Fair use 

The other Cheryl


From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 19:53:15 2002
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From: Lorraine Sonnenberg Newsome <rainelane@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 08:57 AM 3/25/02 -0500, you wrote:

<snip>

>I think Cheryl is correct in what the limitations of lookup should be:
>LOOKUPS only work if the coordinator has the volunteers.  So, if the
>county has a volunteer, Lookups should be for facts only (birth, death,
>marriage, internments etc.)

I agree with both Cheryl's here. I don't live in every county I host, and I 
doubt that most of us do.

And in the event that we did live in the county, if we have jobs, we can't 
be doing look-ups, or be out recruiting them, either.

Sunny



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From: Don Tharp <dontharp@onemain.com>
Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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No, we shouldn't limit the lookup pages or volunteers to passing on only
facts.  Many of us have asked and been granted permission by the copyright
holders to peruse everything in their publications. Also, local newspapers
often give permission to utilize articles and information. 

Permission has been granted in one of my counties to peruse three volumes of
marriage data, a 900 page county history book full of articles concerning
county families, a book of area ghost towns with stories of towns and people
therein, a scrap book put together by a niece of an older aunt with over 5000
newspaper articles, etc.,  and all the copyright holders have been generous
with their permission. Also, there are volunteers that will do court house
lookups, search cemeteries and take pictures, the local funeral director
who is
also a vice president of the local society will search his records upon
requests by researchers, etc., etc. 

True, some societies are very reluctant to release the information they have
worked so hard to gather because in many instances their publications are a
source of badly needed and limited revenue. Yet, other societies are very
generous with their publications. One has given me the permission to put 
on-line the cemetery inscriptions of all the cemeteries in the county, a
document that covers over 400 pages. 

So, no, I couldn't agree that we should limit lookup volunteers to just
passing
on facts that are public records. I see no need to limit lookups, provided
permission from copyright holders has been obtained. 

Don


At 07:57 AM 03/25/2002, you wrote:
>Some/many CCs have problems with local genealogical societies and
>lookups. Local genealogy societies frequently claim copyright on
>materials that cannot be copyrighted. I don't have these problems but
>there have been some bitter battles, threats of lawsuits and such, in
>some counties. The CCs don't feel it is worth the hassle. I don't object
>to a suggestion but I object to a requirement.
>
>I think Cheryl is correct in what the limitations of lookup should be:
>LOOKUPS only work if the coordinator has the volunteers.  So, if the
>county 
>has a volunteer, Lookups should be for facts only (birth, death,
>marriage, 
>internments etc.)
>Lookups in creative works should be for confirmation that the name is in
>the 
>work and where to purchase.  Only facts can be pulled from a creative
>work.  
>The exception, of course, being the old books.
>Even sharing facts from resources should be limited to a reasonable
>amount 
>(2-3 names with facts)  Fair use 
>
>The other Cheryl
> 


From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 19:53:15 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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I guess it goes to my perception of a lookup.  I don't expect my visitors to 
ask me for an article.  Perusing doesn't violate copyright laws.  Pulling 
facts or public information from a book, article, or scrapbook doesn't 
violate copyright laws.  If you have permission to put a complete article 
online, index, inscriptions etc., you wouldn't be doing a lookup in it.  If 
they ask for a wedding date and the LC has permission from the author to give 
them the whole article or paragraph containing the wedding date, that goes 
beyond the lookup and is up to the LC.

If you have volunteers that are looking in the courthouse, funeral homes, 
cemeteries, again they are looking for facts or public information.  Taking 
photos of headstones is not a lookup, but a kind service.

So I define a genealogy lookup as searching for facts to pass on to the 
requestor within reason.

Other services or resources that the LC would want to provide would be up to 
the LC within the restrictions of the copyright laws.  It all depends on the 
resources available to the LC.  Saying a lookup is a search for facts doesn't 
prevent an LC from providing more if they are permitted.

My historical society found their email increased for obits, cemetery info, 
certificates and historical information once people found their ancestors in 
my indexes.  Since they knew their ancestor was in the county, they then had 
better odds that their letter or email to the historical society would come 
back with some information.  I also collect information and corrections from 
visitors to my county page and then share that with the historical society.  
Now the head genealogist is letting me put her column online with the 
permission of the newspaper.  More people have visited the genealogy section 
from out of town now that they know where they are and what information they 
contain.  They found them through my web page.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Mon Mar 25 20:09:33 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:20 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Lorraine Sonnenberg Newsome wrote:

>I agree with both Cheryl's here. I don't live in every county I host, and 
>I doubt that most of us do.
>
>And in the event that we did live in the county, if we have jobs, we can't 
>be doing look-ups, or be out recruiting them, either.

I have a job, I don't live in any of my counties, and I do 5-10 lookups 
every week in one of them.  In the two others I have a handful of folks who 
have volunteered to do lookups in various sources and if I have resources 
available I look in those as well.  I also get 10-20 emails every week 
along the lines of "where do I find these records...?" or "where was this 
town located...? or "how do I get to...?" and I answer all those as well.

I think at one point in the development of USGW, before internet genealogy 
was as developed as it is now, lookups and queries were meant to be the 
heart of the project.  We would all help each other with whatever resources 
we had to hand; if we lived in the county and could go to the courthouse 
and library, great.  If not, then that was OK too.  Perhaps others who 
visited the pages would want to help out with the books they had or the old 
newspapers and yearbooks, or whatever.   Whole-scale copying or doing all 
of someone's research for them was not the intention.

To tell the truth, I have no idea how much the data I post to my webpage 
helps people.  If they find what they are lookign for, they don't usually 
write to say so.  But I know what I am doing for the people I do lookups 
for and I get half a dozen messages or more a month saying what a 
difference it made to their research to finally find out where great-great 
grandma is buried.  I don't think we can require people to offer lookups, 
but this is why I definitely think they should be recommended and encouraged.

-Teresa
merope@radix.net


>Sunny
>
>

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 12:54 PM 3/25/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:


>So, no, I couldn't agree that we should limit lookup volunteers to just
>passing
>on facts that are public records. I see no need to limit lookups, provided
>permission from copyright holders has been obtained.


I agree.  I'm in the same situation as Don.  I have a wonderful lady at the 
local historical society who has given me permission to do lookups in all 
her books on the county (4, soon to be 5 volumes of newspaper extracts from 
1864-1972; cemetery books, church histories, a compendium of family 
stories, reprint of three old county histories, and a full history from the 
newspapers of the first town in the county).  I have a librarian at the 
local library in my other county who will look up obituaries for folks in 
all extant newspapers for the county.  The local paper allows me to extract 
obits and post them.

I think we should make it clear that the LC is responsible for ensuring 
that whatever copyright exists is honored.  As long as that is done, they 
should not be limited in what they provide.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 07:28 PM 3/25/02 -0500, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:

>So I define a genealogy lookup as searching for facts to pass on to the
>requestor within reason.
>
>Other services or resources that the LC would want to provide would be up to
>the LC within the restrictions of the copyright laws.  It all depends on the
>resources available to the LC.  Saying a lookup is a search for facts doesn't
>prevent an LC from providing more if they are permitted.

Agree.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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Me too!

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/25/02 at 8:15 PM merope wrote:

>At 07:28 PM 3/25/02 -0500, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:
>
>>So I define a genealogy lookup as searching for facts to pass on to the
>>requestor within reason.
>>
>>Other services or resources that the LC would want to provide would be up
>to
>>the LC within the restrictions of the copyright laws.  It all depends on
>the
>>resources available to the LC.  Saying a lookup is a search for facts
>doesn't
>>prevent an LC from providing more if they are permitted.
>
>Agree.
>
>-Teresa



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From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 06:52 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Holly Timm wrote:
>At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>>The link for "copyright policies" goes 
>>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is 
>>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright 
>>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?
>
>As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for the 
>committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and broken 
>links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or summarized 
>very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this 
>morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant 
>problems with that linked copyright page.

OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to 
review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the 
Committee suggesting revisions to it?

-Teresa
merope@radix.net


>Holly

</x-flowed>
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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<x-flowed>

This comment was received from a project member.    I think he makes a 
point, and it jogs my memory that someone else on this list had a similar 
concern about logos being hidden away on some other page than the main 
page.  Should we change the wording of the revisions to incorporate his 
suggestion?  Or perhaps at some point we should provide a definition of 
"home" page that incorporates his suggestion so that people are absolutely 
clear on what we mean by "home page"?

Comments?

-Teresa



>To: <merope@radix.net>
>Subject: Project Logo Placement Concern
>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:04:43 -0600
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>
>Hello Teresa,
>
>Regarding the discussion of the placement of logos (excerpts copied below) 
>with particular focus on the statement **** limited to the "home" or 
>"main" page of the local website.****
>- - - some people interpret this to mean they can **name** a unique 
>(separate) page at their site "Home Page" or "Main Page", place the logo 
>on that page, and then burry the page amongst the many that make up a web 
>site.  In some cases, unless you click on a link titled "Home Page", you 
>would never view the logo.  Don't we really mean the web site **ENTRY** 
>page?  In other words, the page that is linked to from the state site or 
>other web pages that are linked to the county site?
>
>The working document dated March 24 could read:
>
>Current:
>Requirements for Local Coordinators:
>
>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project 
>logo on the home page.
>You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at <URL>  You are 
>recommended to display this logo
>near the top of your home page.
>Proposed new:
>Requirements for Local Coordinators:
>
>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project 
>logo ***on the county web site entry page, defined as the page that opens 
>when accessed from the county state page or other web pages that may link 
>to the county site.***  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at 
><URL>  You are recommended to display this logo
>near the top of your home page.
>I appreciate your consideration of my thoughts.
>

</x-flowed>
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Are we considering putting the Query page suggestion in the STRONG
suggestion section or the suggestion section?

Cheryl Rothwell
LoganCty@mindspring.com
www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al


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<x-flowed>

>
>I also think we should recommend that the page at: 
>http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the 
>information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's not 
>very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click 
>to see the definitions.

Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you are 
in favor of this suggestion.

Thanks!

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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not very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click 

to see the definitions.


Agreed, it should be incorporated into the guidelines page.

> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html



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I don't see that this page is useful. I think the information should be
incorporated in the new guidelines.

Cheryl Rothwell

-----Original Message-----
From: merope [mailto:merope@Radix.Net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 8:12 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources



>
>I also think we should recommend that the page at:
>http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the 
>information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's
not 
>very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors
click 
>to see the definitions.

Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you
are 
in favor of this suggestion.

Thanks!

-Teresa



From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 17:14:35 2002
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In favor of the suggestion

Don

At 07:12 AM 03/26/2002, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I also think we should recommend that the page at: 
>><http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html>http://www.usgenweb.
org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the 
>>information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's not 
>>very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click 
>>to see the definitions.
>
>Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you are 
>in favor of this suggestion.
>
>Thanks!
>
>-Teresa
> 


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In favor.  Richard...

merope wrote:
> 
> >
> >I also think we should recommend that the page at:
> >http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the
> >information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's not
> >very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click
> >to see the definitions.
> 
> Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you are
> in favor of this suggestion.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Teresa

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 17:14:35 2002
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In Favor of.

Jan


 At 07:12 AM 03/26/2002, you wrote:


I also think we should recommend that the page at:
http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html>http://www.usgenweb.
org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the
information on it incorporated into our new revised document. There's not
very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors click
to see the definitions.

Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you are
in favor of this suggestion.
Thanks!

Teresa






From ???@??? Thu Mar 28 06:53:25 2002
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From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 08:12 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:


>>I also think we should recommend that the page at: 
>>http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html be deleted and the 
>>information on it incorporated into our new revised document.  There's 
>>not very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors 
>>click to see the definitions.
>
>Please everyone visit the link above and let me know whether or not you 
>are in favor of this suggestion.

Good morning everyone :)

Just wanted to let you all know that this suggestion passed with 7 
affirmative comments.  So I will make the changes to the working document 
and post a revised version shortly.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 07:09:29 2002
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From: W David Samuelsen <dsam@sampubco.com>
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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The information need to be clarified under the section
"Public Domain Materials"

that includes the specific date cutoff for expired copyrights.

define the "public records" and "public domain" and other words/
word groups at the top of the page.

David


merope wrote:
> 
> At 07:01 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:
> >At 06:52 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Holly Timm wrote:
> >>At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
> >>>The link for "copyright policies" goes
> >>>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is
> >>>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright
> >>>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?
> >>
> >>As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for the
> >>committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and broken
> >>links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or summarized
> >>very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this
> >>morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant
> >>problems with that linked copyright page.
> >
> >OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to
> >review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the
> >Committee suggesting revisions to it?
> 
> No takers?  <g>
> 
> -Teresa
> merope@radix.net

From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 07:09:29 2002
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What we need is something like
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilgenweb/public-d.htm  Richard...

W David Samuelsen wrote:
> 
> The information need to be clarified under the section
> "Public Domain Materials"
> 
> that includes the specific date cutoff for expired copyrights.
> 
> define the "public records" and "public domain" and other words/
> word groups at the top of the page.
> 
> David
> 
> merope wrote:
> >
> > At 07:01 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:
> > >At 06:52 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Holly Timm wrote:
> > >>At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
> > >>>The link for "copyright policies" goes
> > >>>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is
> > >>>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright
> > >>>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?
> > >>
> > >>As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for the
> > >>committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and broken
> > >>links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or summarized
> > >>very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this
> > >>morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant
> > >>problems with that linked copyright page.
> > >
> > >OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to
> > >review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the
> > >Committee suggesting revisions to it?
> >
> > No takers?  <g>
> >
> > -Teresa
> > merope@radix.net

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 07:09:29 2002
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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I like this one better because it catches more of the little details:

http://www.progenealogists.com/copyright_table.htm

Cheryl


From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 07:09:37 2002
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In a message dated 3/28/02 3:02:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
LoganCty@mindspring.com writes:


> http://www.progenealogists.com/copyright_table.htm

I agree with Cheryl.  I like the way this one is laid out and then add backup 
links.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 17:14:30 2002
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:33:25 -0500
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We have that problem with the 'homepage' too. They are often using one
homepage for ILGenWeb and a second homepage for another organization,
both linking to the rest of the site. This way they meet the
requirements of both organizations. People come in through the
'homepage' which is visual for about two seconds before going on to the
real pages.

I think having one person do two projects is a bad idea, limits the
amount and variety of material available to researchers. Others
disagree, think it limits the competition [which they think is good].
And everyone has the limited number of volunteers problem.

In any event, I don't see how you can forbid it. And I would not be
happy with a requirement to have the logo on every page.

Cheryl Rothwell
LoganCty@mindspring.com
www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al



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One problem I encountered is that...

some CCs do not use  index.htm / index.html  which is usually
the default home page address. Instead of that, they use exotic
names! One site not long ago took me forever to try to figure out
which page is the "home" page because it used frames method and not
one page is listed as index.

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> We have that problem with the 'homepage' too. They are often using one
> homepage for ILGenWeb and a second homepage for another organization,
> both linking to the rest of the site. This way they meet the
> requirements of both organizations. People come in through the
> 'homepage' which is visual for about two seconds before going on to the
> real pages.
> 
> I think having one person do two projects is a bad idea, limits the
> amount and variety of material available to researchers. Others
> disagree, think it limits the competition [which they think is good].
> And everyone has the limited number of volunteers problem.
> 
> In any event, I don't see how you can forbid it. And I would not be
> happy with a requirement to have the logo on every page.
> 
> Cheryl Rothwell
> LoganCty@mindspring.com
> www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
> Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
> Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al

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Just got off discussions with others who had been driven from
GenForum.

GenForum now require you to register in BEFORE you can post ANY
message. They went a step further than RW/Ancestry. I went there
to check it out. The notice is there and I haven't dared to go any
further but from what others said, they wanted SNAIL address (as in
street/PO Box).....

Obvious disclaimer and notice has to be listed for each type of
message board system, after all.

David

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I think the legal issues are beginning to pop up and board owners are
becoming more cautious. I think the requirement that information be
provided before posting is going to become more widespread to satisfy
the insurance carriers. This doesn't just apply to genealogy. You have
probably noted that law enforcement gets a person's computer or reads
their postings and gets information from the ISP. Now they can go to the
board owner as well.

Yes, we need that disclaimer, just need to figure out how to do it.

Cheryl Rothwell
LoganCty@mindspring.com
www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al



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http://www.progenealogists.com/copyright_table.htm

is a pretty good, concise, guide to copyright. Remember, this is all
subject to change as the Supremes study the Bono law.

Cheryl Rothwell
LoganCty@mindspring.com
www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al


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I agree with this--seems a waste of space for something that could be covered on the guidelines page.

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/26/02 at 10:16 AM INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:

>not very much info there and it does not seem worth it to make visitors
>click 
>
>to see the definitions.
>
>
>Agreed, it should be incorporated into the guidelines page.
>


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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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<x-flowed>
At 03:28 PM 3/26/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:

>Not picking on Indiana, just using it as an example of the difficulty in
>writing a generic recommendation that will cover all eventualities. Perhaps we
>must first write a definition of what is a home page/main page acceptable
>to be
>a USGWP home page.

Interesting observation.  I know there are several KS pages that do the 
same, and lots of TN pages that are gateways...  suggestions for good 
concise wording are welcome!

-Teresa



>Don

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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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I agree that the USGenWeb logo and the state logos should be prominent on the 
main home entry page, which should be the page a visitor encounters when they 
click on a link intimating they are accessing a USGenWeb Page.

I've hit a few that when I click on the GenWeb link for that county, I end up 
with a Genealogy Society sponsored page.  On some other page they list the 
GenWeb logos and info.  I've even had LC's who state they aren't part of 
GenWeb and yet they are the LC for the county per the state coordinator and 
they consider themselves the LC for the county.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 17:14:35 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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At 06:39 AM 03/26/2002, you wrote:

<snip>
>
>This comment was received from a project member.   
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa
>
>
>
>>To: <merope@radix.net>
>>Subject: Project Logo Placement Concern
>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:04:43 -0600
>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>>
>>Hello Teresa,
>>
>>Regarding the discussion of the placement of logos (excerpts copied below) 
>>with particular focus on the statement **** limited to the "home" or 
>>"main" page of the local website.****
>>- - - some people interpret this to mean they can **name** a unique 
>>(separate) page at their site "Home Page" or "Main Page", place the logo 
>>on that page, and then burry the page amongst the many that make up a web 
>>site.  In some cases, unless you click on a link titled "Home Page", you 
>>would never view the logo.  Don't we really mean the web site **ENTRY** 
>>page?  In other words, the page that is linked to from the state site or 
>>other web pages that are linked to the county site?
>>
>>The working document dated March 24 could read:
>>
>>Current:
>>Requirements for Local Coordinators:
>>
>>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project 
>>logo on the home page.
>>You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at <URL>  You are 
>>recommended to display this logo
>>near the top of your home page.
>>Proposed new:
>>Requirements for Local Coordinators:
>>
>>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project 
>>logo ***on the county web site entry page, defined as the page that opens 
>>when accessed from the county state page or other web pages that may link 
>>to the county site.***  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at 
>><URL>  You are recommended to display this logo
>>near the top of your home page.
>>I appreciate your consideration of my thoughts.

The wording of this recommendation is going to be difficult. For instance,
many
county are accessed from the state page through an entry page before
getting to
the county page. In fact every county in the state of Indiana is gated from
the
state county links page. If one waits long enough the Indiana gates
automatically takes you to the county page. However, this doesn't  necessarily
occur in other states. I would hope we can write the recommendation in such a
way that no one interprets it to be the first page linked by the state county
links page if that is a gateway/entry page.

Not picking on Indiana, just using it as an example of the difficulty in
writing a generic recommendation that will cover all eventualities. Perhaps we
must first write a definition of what is a home page/main page acceptable
to be
a USGWP home page.

Don


From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 20:48:48 2002
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From: ILGenWeb State Coordinator <richpump@wf.net>
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The USGenWeb Project is an association of individuals from around the world
for private, non-commercial research and sharing of genealogical
information.  No profits are made or permitted by the USGenWeb Project.
USGenWeb Project, its Subgroups, or its individual Members, at least so far
as their activities in the USGenWeb Project and affiliated Subgroups are
concerned.

Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.

Any previously published and copyrighted materials used or displayed by the
USGenWeb is done so entirely for non-commercial, non-profit research of
individual persons.  It is the intention of the USGenWeb Project only to
utilize materials for which it has permission or which constitutes "fair
use."


merope wrote:
> 
> At 08:22 AM 3/26/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
> >Just got off discussions with others who had been driven from
> >GenForum.
> >
> >GenForum now require you to register in BEFORE you can post ANY
> >message. They went a step further than RW/Ancestry. I went there
> >to check it out. The notice is there and I haven't dared to go any
> >further but from what others said, they wanted SNAIL address (as in
> >street/PO Box).....
> >
> >Obvious disclaimer and notice has to be listed for each type of
> >message board system, after all.
> 
> Bleh.  They are asking for street addresses as part of registration.  How
> bogus.  The registration is required to post, not to view, but still  its a
> bit unnerving.  I guess they are doing it to protect themselves in the case
> of harrassement or abusive posts.
> 
> Be that as it may, I think we need to think very carefully about specific
> disclaimers.  These companies have legal departments and we probably do not
> want to attract their attention.   I still think a more generic disclaimer
> will work; what we are trying to accomplish is not warning people away from
> any specific resources, but letting them know that those resources are not
> part of USGenWeb, are not under USGenWeb control, and any use of them is at
> the user's risk.  Our LCs can decide for themselves if GenForum is worth
> linking to, and their visitors can decide for themselves if registering is
> worth it.  Our responsibility lies only with providing the LC with a
> correctly worded disclaimer that will remove any liability from them and
> USGenWeb.
> 
> -Teresa
> merope@radix.net
> 
> >David

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Tue Mar 26 21:42:22 2002
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From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Heads Up!  Genforum
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<x-flowed>
At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:\


>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.

This is nice, Rich. Where did it come from?

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Mar 27 06:07:37 2002
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Well Teresa that is a tuff question. I have been working on guidelines for
ILGenWeb for some time. The wording is from several sources. There are
several other states doing same thing. They are using some of mine and we
some of theirs. I don't believe you will find it the same anywhere. It may
change several more times before in it's final form. Richard...

merope wrote:
> 
> At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:\
> 
> >Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
> >Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
> >for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
> >provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
> >does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.
> 
> This is nice, Rich. Where did it come from?
> 
> -Teresa

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Wed Mar 27 19:07:29 2002
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Hey Richard -- that's good!

-----Original Message-----
From: ILGenWeb State Coordinator [mailto:richpump@wf.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 6:05 PM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Heads Up! Genforum


The USGenWeb Project is an association of individuals from around the
world for private, non-commercial research and sharing of genealogical
information.  No profits are made or permitted by the USGenWeb Project.
USGenWeb Project, its Subgroups, or its individual Members, at least so
far as their activities in the USGenWeb Project and affiliated Subgroups
are concerned.

Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not
responsible for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project
or members provides links to you only as a convenience, and the
inclusion of any link does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb
Project of the site.

Any previously published and copyrighted materials used or displayed by
the USGenWeb is done so entirely for non-commercial, non-profit research
of individual persons.  It is the intention of the USGenWeb Project only
to utilize materials for which it has permission or which constitutes
"fair use."


merope wrote:
> 
> At 08:22 AM 3/26/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
> >Just got off discussions with others who had been driven from 
> >GenForum.
> >
> >GenForum now require you to register in BEFORE you can post ANY 
> >message. They went a step further than RW/Ancestry. I went there to 
> >check it out. The notice is there and I haven't dared to go any 
> >further but from what others said, they wanted SNAIL address (as in 
> >street/PO Box).....
> >
> >Obvious disclaimer and notice has to be listed for each type of 
> >message board system, after all.
> 
> Bleh.  They are asking for street addresses as part of registration.  
> How bogus.  The registration is required to post, not to view, but 
> still  its a bit unnerving.  I guess they are doing it to protect 
> themselves in the case of harrassement or abusive posts.
> 
> Be that as it may, I think we need to think very carefully about 
> specific disclaimers.  These companies have legal departments and we
probably do not
> want to attract their attention.   I still think a more generic
disclaimer
> will work; what we are trying to accomplish is not warning people away

> from any specific resources, but letting them know that those 
> resources are not part of USGenWeb, are not under USGenWeb control, 
> and any use of them is at the user's risk.  Our LCs can decide for 
> themselves if GenForum is worth linking to, and their visitors can 
> decide for themselves if registering is worth it.  Our responsibility 
> lies only with providing the LC with a correctly worded disclaimer 
> that will remove any liability from them and USGenWeb.
> 
> -Teresa
> merope@radix.net
> 
> >David

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319



From ???@??? Wed Mar 27 19:07:29 2002
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good but the first line in 2nd paragraph need to be rewritten to
clear out the "first glance of assumption"

"Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
Project or members..."

Huh? are you saying the links aren't controlled by us or did you
meant the "Third Party Sites".  

That's the "first glance of assumption"

David Samuelsen

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Hey Richard -- that's good!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ILGenWeb State Coordinator [mailto:richpump@wf.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 6:05 PM
> To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Heads Up! Genforum
> 
> The USGenWeb Project is an association of individuals from around the
> world for private, non-commercial research and sharing of genealogical
> information.  No profits are made or permitted by the USGenWeb Project.
> USGenWeb Project, its Subgroups, or its individual Members, at least so
> far as their activities in the USGenWeb Project and affiliated Subgroups
> are concerned.
> 
> Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
> Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not
> responsible for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project
> or members provides links to you only as a convenience, and the
> inclusion of any link does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb
> Project of the site.
> 
> Any previously published and copyrighted materials used or displayed by
> the USGenWeb is done so entirely for non-commercial, non-profit research
> of individual persons.  It is the intention of the USGenWeb Project only
> to utilize materials for which it has permission or which constitutes
> "fair use."
> 
> merope wrote:
> >
> > At 08:22 AM 3/26/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
> > >Just got off discussions with others who had been driven from
> > >GenForum.
> > >
> > >GenForum now require you to register in BEFORE you can post ANY
> > >message. They went a step further than RW/Ancestry. I went there to
> > >check it out. The notice is there and I haven't dared to go any
> > >further but from what others said, they wanted SNAIL address (as in
> > >street/PO Box).....
> > >
> > >Obvious disclaimer and notice has to be listed for each type of
> > >message board system, after all.
> >
> > Bleh.  They are asking for street addresses as part of registration.
> > How bogus.  The registration is required to post, not to view, but
> > still  its a bit unnerving.  I guess they are doing it to protect
> > themselves in the case of harrassement or abusive posts.
> >
> > Be that as it may, I think we need to think very carefully about
> > specific disclaimers.  These companies have legal departments and we
> probably do not
> > want to attract their attention.   I still think a more generic
> disclaimer
> > will work; what we are trying to accomplish is not warning people away
> 
> > from any specific resources, but letting them know that those
> > resources are not part of USGenWeb, are not under USGenWeb control,
> > and any use of them is at the user's risk.  Our LCs can decide for
> > themselves if GenForum is worth linking to, and their visitors can
> > decide for themselves if registering is worth it.  Our responsibility
> > lies only with providing the LC with a correctly worded disclaimer
> > that will remove any liability from them and USGenWeb.
> >
> > -Teresa
> > merope@radix.net
> >
> > >David
> 
> --
> 
> 
>       Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator
>       Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 898319

From ???@??? Thu Mar 28 06:53:25 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 07:01 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>At 06:52 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Holly Timm wrote:
>>At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>>>The link for "copyright policies" goes 
>>>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it is 
>>>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright 
>>>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?
>>
>>As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for the 
>>committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and broken 
>>links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or summarized 
>>very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this 
>>morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant 
>>problems with that linked copyright page.
>
>OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to 
>review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the 
>Committee suggesting revisions to it?

No takers?  <g>

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 10:42 AM 3/26/02 -0500, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:

>Are we considering putting the Query page suggestion in the STRONG
>suggestion section or the suggestion section?

Which suggestion about query pages are you referring to?

I was planning on organizing the guidelines by topic (Queries, Local 
Resources, etc) rather than by whether or not it is required or recommended 
or suggested.  So any suggestions about queries would go under 
"Queries".  We can talk about organization of the document at a later 
time  though, certainly.  Right now I'd like to stick more with the 
substance of the revisions.

-Teresa


>Cheryl Rothwell
>LoganCty@mindspring.com
>www.rootsweb.com/~illogan/
>Central Illinois Regional Coordinator, ILGenWeb
>Clark, Downing, Harding, Lucas et al

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>

>
>
>I was planning on organizing the guidelines by topic (Queries, Local 
>Resources, etc) rather than by whether or not it is required or 
>recommended or suggested.  So any suggestions about queries would go under 
>"Queries".  We can talk about organization of the document at a later 
>time  though, certainly.  Right now I'd like to stick more with the 
>substance of the revisions.

Let me just comment on my own comment here ....

I was just looking at the working document and I did organize it by 
"Required" and "Recommended".  Within "Required" are listed so far: Logos, 
"solicitions of funds", Queries, Links, and Mailing Lists.  Under 
"Recommended" so far I have Lookups and Local Resources.   [This is the 
version still on my computer.]

-Teresa



</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 06:40 AM 3/28/02 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:01 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>>
>>OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to 
>>review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the 
>>Committee suggesting revisions to it?
>
>No takers?  <g>
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net

We're scared <g>.

Morgan

</x-flowed>
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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I've been meditating on that. I'm willing to help on it.

Cheryl Rothwell

-----Original Message-----
From: merope [mailto:merope@Radix.Net] 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 6:41 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources


At 07:01 AM 3/26/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>At 06:52 AM 3/25/02 -0500, Holly Timm wrote:
>>At 07:07 PM 3/24/02 -0500, merope wrote:
>>>The link for "copyright policies" goes
>>>here:  http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html  I think it
is 
>>>probably outside the scope of this committee to address the copyright

>>>policy of USGenWeb.  Holly?
>>
>>As an adjunct to the guidelines, it would probably be appropriate for 
>>the
>>committee to review it overall for glaring omissions, clarity and
broken 
>>links and to see if perhaps the subject should be expanded or
summarized 
>>very briefly in the guidelines themselves. In my quick read of it this

>>morning (on my first cup of coffee yet) I didn't see any significant 
>>problems with that linked copyright page.
>
>OK, sounds good.  Is there someone on the committee who would like to
>review the copyright page listed above and present a report to the 
>Committee suggesting revisions to it?

No takers?  <g>

-Teresa
merope@radix.net



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<x-flowed>
At 08:22 AM 3/26/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
>Just got off discussions with others who had been driven from
>GenForum.
>
>GenForum now require you to register in BEFORE you can post ANY
>message. They went a step further than RW/Ancestry. I went there
>to check it out. The notice is there and I haven't dared to go any
>further but from what others said, they wanted SNAIL address (as in
>street/PO Box).....
>
>Obvious disclaimer and notice has to be listed for each type of
>message board system, after all.

Bleh.  They are asking for street addresses as part of registration.  How 
bogus.  The registration is required to post, not to view, but still  its a 
bit unnerving.  I guess they are doing it to protect themselves in the case 
of harrassement or abusive posts.

Be that as it may, I think we need to think very carefully about specific 
disclaimers.  These companies have legal departments and we probably do not 
want to attract their attention.   I still think a more generic disclaimer 
will work; what we are trying to accomplish is not warning people away from 
any specific resources, but letting them know that those resources are not 
part of USGenWeb, are not under USGenWeb control, and any use of them is at 
the user's risk.  Our LCs can decide for themselves if GenForum is worth 
linking to, and their visitors can decide for themselves if registering is 
worth it.  Our responsibility lies only with providing the LC with a 
correctly worded disclaimer that will remove any liability from them and 
USGenWeb.

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

>David

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 07:36:32 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:57 AM 3/28/02 -0500, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
>I've been meditating on that. I'm willing to help on it.

Great Cheryl, thanks! Since David, Richard and the Cheryl Parker all also 
seem interested in this topic, why don't the four of you examine the 
copyright page at http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html and 
write up a brief report on what you think needs to be added, deleted, 
and/or changed.  When the full group is done discussing the lookups and 
local resources we can discuss your report.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that page is a little 
intimidating.  There are a lot of links and a lot of information to digest, 
and some of the text is still written as if we are a new 
organization.   Also, I'm not sure we need to get into the "Authors 
Granting Permission" and "Authors Denying Permission" business.  Neither 
appear to have been utilized for the last five years and I'm not entirely 
sure that anyone ever looks at it.

So, anyways, you four take a look at what is there, make whatever 
recommendations you feel are necessary, and we will plan on discussing your 
report in two weeks as a full group.    If anyone else has any comments to 
make about the copyright page, please send them directly to one of the four 
listed above.  Sound good?

-Teresa
    delegating!

</x-flowed>
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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:44:05 -0500
From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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<x-flowed>
At 02:22 PM 3/29/02 -0500, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:

>Isn't displaying a the logo a MUST rather than a SHOULD?

Displaying the logo is a requirement; where it is displayed is a 
recommendation.

-Tere



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Tharp [mailto:dontharp@onemain.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:42 AM
>To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
>
>
>At 07:07 AM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
><snip>
> >
> >What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members
> >are
> >proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance
>on
> >where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will
>follow
> >it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no
> >matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big
>
> >chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy
>with
> >the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further
>revision.
> >
> >Comments?
> >
> >-Teresa
>
>Would it be okay to expand the logo paragraph a bit? Such as the one
>below with the words USGenWeb logo as a link to the logo image page.
>
>To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The
>USGenWeb Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb
>logo should be prominently displayed on your home page.
>
>Don

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 03:28 PM 3/26/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:

> >>
> >>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project
> >>logo ***on the county web site entry page, defined as the page that opens
> >>when accessed from the county state page or other web pages that may link
> >>to the county site.***  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at
> >><URL>  You are recommended to display this logo
> >>near the top of your home page.
> >>I appreciate your consideration of my thoughts.
>
>The wording of this recommendation is going to be difficult. For instance,
>many
>county are accessed from the state page through an entry page before
>getting to
>the county page. In fact every county in the state of Indiana is gated from
>the
>state county links page. If one waits long enough the Indiana gates
>automatically takes you to the county page. However, this doesn't  necessarily
>occur in other states. I would hope we can write the recommendation in such a
>way that no one interprets it to be the first page linked by the state county
>links page if that is a gateway/entry page.

Good morning everyone, its catch up day! :)

It appears that we have several different problems with this issue of 
defining what page the logo should be on:

1) definition of "home", "main", or "index" page--some people apparently 
use dummy pages for this and put logos there rather than on what might be 
considered the main page for their site. There's probably nothing we can do 
about these people; any suggestion we come up with they will probably find 
a way around.

2) gateway pages--several states use these, particularly when, like KSGW, 
they have free server space for all counties, but some people have their 
pages on other servers.  Nothing wrong with this, but it makes defining the 
"home" page as the one linked to from the state page problematic.

3) "dual" pages--some people use the same pages for two or more online 
genealogy projects.  In several states, LCs are not allowed to have their 
USGenWeb page be the same page as for their other sites, so they have a 
separate home page for each project but all the rest of the pages are 
shared.  I don't think this causes a problem for us so long as the USGW 
logo is prominently displayed on the page linked to from the 
state.  However, sometimes the _same_ page is used as the lead-in for all 
projects and the USGW logo has to jockey for space among other logos and 
banners.   There's currently no USGW rule about dual pages and in the 
absence of such a rule, it will be difficult to recommend that "our logo be 
bigger than theirs".

So, what to do about this?  The bylaws, which are the basis for this 
requirement, say only that prominent placement of the logo is required.  We 
have recommended so far that "prominent" should mean "near the top of the 
home page".  Is it worth it to further expand this definition?  I don't 
think there'd be any support at all for recommending the logo be on all 
pages.  Getting into complicated definitions of what is a "home" page may 
just end  up confusing people, and gateway pages are another matter 
entirely and only affect a relatively small proportion of the project.

What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members are 
proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance on 
where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will follow 
it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no 
matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big 
chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy with 
the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further revision.

Comments?

-Teresa



</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Fri Mar 29 08:28:25 2002
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<x-flowed>
Sounds good to me....

Sunny

At 08:12 AM 3/29/02 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
>>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
>>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
>>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
>>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.
>
>This suggestion for a disclaimer regarding "third party" sites has been 
>provided by Rich Howland, and has met with generally positive 
>comment.   Should we go ahead and include this as a recommended disclaimer 
>for Local Coordinators to add to their home pages?
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:



>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.

This suggestion for a disclaimer regarding "third party" sites has been 
provided by Rich Howland, and has met with generally positive 
comment.   Should we go ahead and include this as a recommended disclaimer 
for Local Coordinators to add to their home pages?

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:23:02 -0500
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>>First, does anyone object to splitting up this topic into two separate

topics: "Lookups" and "Local Resources"?  I think it makes things 
conceptually a little easier.

I think they are two different things and I have them on different pages
so I definitely agree.

Could we make it:

>>"Local Coordinators are recommended....<snip>
The Local Coordinator may CHOSE TO list themselves in the lookups list
but IS NOT REQUIRED to do so. [emphasis for discussion only]

I think it makes it clearer to them.

Cheryl


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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While I would LIKE to figure this out I don't know a good answer that
could be applied to the entire project. Perhaps it should be left to the
states to determine what works best for them.

Cheryl

-----Original Message-----
From: merope [mailto:merope@Radix.Net] 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 8:07 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern


At 03:28 PM 3/26/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:

> >>
> >>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb 
> >>Project logo ***on the county web site entry page, defined as the 
> >>page that opens when accessed from the county state page or other 
> >>web pages that may link to the county site.***  You will find 
> >>official USGenWeb Project logos at <URL>  You are recommended to 
> >>display this logo near the top of your home page. I appreciate your 
> >>consideration of my thoughts.
>
>The wording of this recommendation is going to be difficult. For 
>instance, many county are accessed from the state page through an entry

>page before getting to
>the county page. In fact every county in the state of Indiana is gated
from
>the
>state county links page. If one waits long enough the Indiana gates
>automatically takes you to the county page. However, this doesn't
necessarily
>occur in other states. I would hope we can write the recommendation in
such a
>way that no one interprets it to be the first page linked by the state
county
>links page if that is a gateway/entry page.

Good morning everyone, its catch up day! :)

It appears that we have several different problems with this issue of 
defining what page the logo should be on:

1) definition of "home", "main", or "index" page--some people apparently

use dummy pages for this and put logos there rather than on what might
be 
considered the main page for their site. There's probably nothing we can
do 
about these people; any suggestion we come up with they will probably
find 
a way around.

2) gateway pages--several states use these, particularly when, like
KSGW, 
they have free server space for all counties, but some people have their

pages on other servers.  Nothing wrong with this, but it makes defining
the 
"home" page as the one linked to from the state page problematic.

3) "dual" pages--some people use the same pages for two or more online 
genealogy projects.  In several states, LCs are not allowed to have
their 
USGenWeb page be the same page as for their other sites, so they have a 
separate home page for each project but all the rest of the pages are 
shared.  I don't think this causes a problem for us so long as the USGW 
logo is prominently displayed on the page linked to from the 
state.  However, sometimes the _same_ page is used as the lead-in for
all 
projects and the USGW logo has to jockey for space among other logos and

banners.   There's currently no USGW rule about dual pages and in the 
absence of such a rule, it will be difficult to recommend that "our logo
be 
bigger than theirs".

So, what to do about this?  The bylaws, which are the basis for this 
requirement, say only that prominent placement of the logo is required.
We 
have recommended so far that "prominent" should mean "near the top of
the 
home page".  Is it worth it to further expand this definition?  I don't 
think there'd be any support at all for recommending the logo be on all 
pages.  Getting into complicated definitions of what is a "home" page
may 
just end  up confusing people, and gateway pages are another matter 
entirely and only affect a relatively small proportion of the project.

What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members
are 
proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance
on 
where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will
follow 
it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no 
matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big 
chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy with

the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further
revision.

Comments?

-Teresa





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>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb 
>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not 
>responsible for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project 
>or members provides links to you only as a convenience, and the 
>inclusion of any link does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb 
>Project of the site.

I'd like to word/punctuate that a bit differently:

Links to Third Party Sites are [emphasis] not [emphasis] under the
control of the USGenWeb Project or its members. Neither the USGenWeb
Project or its members are not responsible for the contents of any
linked site. Links to Third Party Sites are provided only for your
convenience and do [emphasis] not [emphasis] imply any endorsement by
the USGenWeb Project or its members.

I am wondering if the states might want to amend that to replace "its
members" to, for example, ILGenWeb.

Cheryl



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Just one thing -- there are things on that page that I don't think we
should be saying unless someone here is a copyright attorney. I don't
have the time or facilities to Shephardize the case law quoted -- make
sure it is current, etc. It sounds a bit like practicing law without a
license.

Cheryl


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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At 07:07 AM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members are 
>proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance on 
>where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will follow 
>it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no 
>matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big 
>chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy with 
>the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further
revision.
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa

Would it be okay to expand the logo paragraph a bit? Such as the one below
with
the words USGenWeb logo as a link to the logo image page.

To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The USGenWeb
Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be
prominently displayed on your home page.

Don



From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 08:36:08 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:42 AM 3/29/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:


>To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The USGenWeb
>Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be
>prominently displayed on your home page.

I like this and have incorporated it into the workign document to read:

"All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project logo 
on the home page.  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at 
<URL>   To inform researchers that your site is a member of The USGenWeb 
Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be 
prominently displayed near the top of your home page."

Thanks Don!

-Teresa

>Don

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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
There are a couple of things to address in this topic:

First, does anyone object to splitting up this topic into two separate 
topics: "Lookups" and "Local Resources"?  I think it makes things 
conceptually a little easier.

Second...Lookups.

Most of the comments thus far on this topic have addressed Lookups 
specifically.  I have not seen any comments in favor of requiring lookups, 
but several have remarked that recommending lookups or including them as an 
option is a good idea.  A few have suggested limiting lookups to 
noncopyrightable facts only; others have suggested that this unnecessarily 
limits LCs who have permission to do full lookups in copyrighted 
materials.   Although we will discuss the copyright info page separately, I 
think we are all in agreement that any lookups offered should conform to 
copyright law.

Based on your comments, here is the text I propose to include for "lookups" 
in the working document:

"Local Coordinators are recommended to provide a list of "Lookup 
volunteers."  Upon request, these lookup volunteers will provide 
information to researchers from the resources available to them.  The Local 
Coordinator is not obligated to do any lookups but may provide a place 
where people who have access to resources may be contacted to provide 
information to others who are searching.  The Local Coordinator may list 
themselves in the lookups list, but you are not obligated to do lookups for 
the county you host.  The lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring 
either that 1) the materials are not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, 
permission has been obtained from the copyright holder to provide 
information from them."

This text is a combination of the wording previously available at 
http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html, some comments made by 
you guys, and my own thoughts on who should be responsible for ensuring 
copyright is respected.  For liability reasons, I don't think it should be 
USGW or the LC.

Is this OK with everyone?  Please feel free to suggest any changes in wording.

-Teresa
merope@radix.net


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Disclaimer
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Appears just fine to me. Good job Rich.

Don


At 07:12 AM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
>At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
>>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
>>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
>>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
>>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.
>
>This suggestion for a disclaimer regarding "third party" sites has been 
>provided by Rich Howland, and has met with generally positive 
>comment.   Should we go ahead and include this as a recommended disclaimer 
>for Local Coordinators to add to their home pages?
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net
> 


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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From: Don Tharp <dontharp@onemain.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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I would recommend slight changes, i.e.,

"[It is recommended that Local Coordinators provide a list of "names and
addresses  when lookup volunteers are available]."  Upon request, these lookup
volunteers will provide 
information to researchers from the resources available to them.  The Local 
Coordinator is not obligated to do any lookups but may provide a place 
where [volunteers] who have access to resources may be contacted to provide 
information to others who are searching.  The Local Coordinator may list 
themselves in the lookups list, but you are not obligated to do lookups for 
the county you host.  The lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring 
either that 1) the materials are not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, 
permission has been obtained from the copyright holder to provide 
information from [such material]."





At 07:35 AM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
>There are a couple of things to address in this topic:
>
>First, does anyone object to splitting up this topic into two separate 
>topics: "Lookups" and "Local Resources"?  I think it makes things 
>conceptually a little easier.
>
>Second...Lookups.
>
>Most of the comments thus far on this topic have addressed Lookups 
>specifically.  I have not seen any comments in favor of requiring lookups, 
>but several have remarked that recommending lookups or including them as an 
>option is a good idea.  A few have suggested limiting lookups to 
>noncopyrightable facts only; others have suggested that this unnecessarily 
>limits LCs who have permission to do full lookups in copyrighted 
>materials.   Although we will discuss the copyright info page separately, I 
>think we are all in agreement that any lookups offered should conform to 
>copyright law.
>
>Based on your comments, here is the text I propose to include for "lookups" 
>in the working document:
>
>"Local Coordinators are recommended to provide a list of "Lookup 
>volunteers."  Upon request, these lookup volunteers will provide 
>information to researchers from the resources available to them.  The Local 
>Coordinator is not obligated to do any lookups but may provide a place 
>where people who have access to resources may be contacted to provide 
>information to others who are searching.  The Local Coordinator may list 
>themselves in the lookups list, but you are not obligated to do lookups for 
>the county you host.  The lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring 
>either that 1) the materials are not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, 
>permission has been obtained from the copyright holder to provide 
>information from them."
>
>This text is a combination of the wording previously available at 
><http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/querylookup.html>http://www.usgenweb.o
rg/volunteers/querylookup.html, some comments made by 
>you guys, and my own thoughts on who should be responsible for ensuring 
>copyright is respected.  For liability reasons, I don't think it should be 
>USGW or the LC.
>
>Is this OK with everyone?  Please feel free to suggest any changes in
wording.
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net
> 


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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Cheryl is pretty much closer to my concerns.

Links or is it Third Party Sites - not under the control

are we talking about the "LINKS" themselves or are we talking about
the "Third Party Sites"

The way the first line is written, is making me wondering about
which end is tail or head???

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> >Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
> >Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not
> >responsible for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project
> >or members provides links to you only as a convenience, and the
> >inclusion of any link does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb
> >Project of the site.
> 
> I'd like to word/punctuate that a bit differently:
> 
> Links to Third Party Sites are [emphasis] not [emphasis] under the
> control of the USGenWeb Project or its members. Neither the USGenWeb
> Project or its members are not responsible for the contents of any
> linked site. Links to Third Party Sites are provided only for your
> convenience and do [emphasis] not [emphasis] imply any endorsement by
> the USGenWeb Project or its members.
> 
> I am wondering if the states might want to amend that to replace "its
> members" to, for example, ILGenWeb.
> 
> Cheryl

From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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This sounds good to me.  In Michigan we use a disclaimer page that we are
all required to link to:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikent/admin/disclaimers.html
but, this does a real good job in addressing this topic.  Maybe Michigan
needs to take a look at this for ours.

Jan



> At 08:12 AM 3/29/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
> >>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not
responsible
> >>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
> >>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any
link
> >>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.
> >
> >This suggestion for a disclaimer regarding "third party" sites has been
> >provided by Rich Howland, and has met with generally positive
> >comment.   Should we go ahead and include this as a recommended
disclaimer
> >for Local Coordinators to add to their home pages?
> >
> >-Teresa
> >merope@radix.net
>
>


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:12 2002
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David has a point... 

Links to Third Party Sites -- sites which are [emphasis] not [emphasis]
under the control of the USGenWeb Project or its members: Links to Third
Party Sites are provided only for your convenience and do [emphasis] not
[emphasis] imply any endorsement by the USGenWeb Project or its members.
Neither the USGenWeb Project or its members are not responsible for the
contents of any Third Party Site which it may provide a link to.

Not perfect grammar but... I think we can emphasize 'sites which are not
under the control...' on the page, just can't do it on the list.

Cheryl


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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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Isn't displaying a the logo a MUST rather than a SHOULD?

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Tharp [mailto:dontharp@onemain.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:42 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern


At 07:07 AM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members 
>are
>proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance
on 
>where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will
follow 
>it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no 
>matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big

>chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy
with 
>the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further
revision.
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa

Would it be okay to expand the logo paragraph a bit? Such as the one
below with the words USGenWeb logo as a link to the logo image page.

To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The
USGenWeb Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb
logo should be prominently displayed on your home page.

Don





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At 01:22 PM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
>Isn't displaying a the logo a MUST rather than a SHOULD?
<SNIP>
SHOULD: past tense of shall: used to express obligation or duty.

Should sounds nicer, but to remove doubt, we could substitute will for should.

>To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The
>USGenWeb Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb
>logo should be prominently displayed on your home page.
>
>Don
> 


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:37 2002
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"shall" means required
"should" means encouraging but the CCs can tell us to screw it.

Therefore "SHALL" is the word.

I'm not saying WHERE to position it.

David Samuelsen

Don Tharp wrote:
> 
> At 01:22 PM 03/29/2002, you wrote:
> >Isn't displaying a the logo a MUST rather than a SHOULD?
> <SNIP>
> SHOULD: past tense of shall: used to express obligation or duty.
> 
> Should sounds nicer, but to remove doubt, we could substitute will for should.
> 
> >To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The
> >USGenWeb Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb
> >logo should be prominently displayed on your home page.
> >
> >Don
> >

From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:34:42 2002
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Sounds good to me.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 07:49:43 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 02:22 PM 3/29/02 -0500, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:

We could start the section with a sentence like:

"Many of the resources you will link to are not part of The USGenWeb 
Project.  Therefore, we recommend that you add the following disclaimer to 
your home page:

and then list the disclaimer

-Teresa


>David has a point...
>
>Links to Third Party Sites -- sites which are [emphasis] not [emphasis]
>under the control of the USGenWeb Project or its members: Links to Third
>Party Sites are provided only for your convenience and do [emphasis] not
>[emphasis] imply any endorsement by the USGenWeb Project or its members.
>Neither the USGenWeb Project or its members are not responsible for the
>contents of any Third Party Site which it may provide a link to.
>
>Not perfect grammar but... I think we can emphasize 'sites which are not
>under the control...' on the page, just can't do it on the list.
>
>Cheryl

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 13:37:09 2002
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I really don't want to get into it here but a lot of the authors and
genealogical societies are 'copyrighting' things that can't be
copyrighted. However, they harass the CCs about it and the CCs feel it
just isn't worth the hassle. One CC finally got fed up with it and told
the genealogical society to 'sue me' or something along those lines [I
did NOT ask for details] and that was the end of that. Other sites [the
one I'm thinking of is not a GenWeb site] just ignore copyright figuring
the owners of the materials aren't going to spend the money on an
attorney.

Cheryl



From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 09:04:00 2002
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Some volunteers get scared of the copyright laws.  They don't want to read 
the whole thing.  By separating the facts from the creative, they might feel 
more comfortable about volunteering for the LC's and LC's might feel more 
comfortable about the Lookup page.  Doing this doesn't limit what an LC 
offers anymore than the copyright laws.

"A Lookup is a service provided by a volunteer who will search through their 
personal or county resources for basic facts (name, birth date, birth place, 
parents, marriage date, spouse, place of marriage, death date, and place of 
death) of a specific person's life needed by the requestor which are not 
copyrighted.  Since Lookup Volunteers are very important to genealogy 
research online, Local Coordinators are encouraged to provide a webpage 
listing contact information for volunteers and the resources they will 
search.  If a lookup volunteer wishes to provide more than public facts, then 
the lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring either that 1) the material 
is not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, permission has been obtained from the 
copyright holder allowing the volunteer to extract and pass on creative 
information from the material."  (Have a link to the copyright part about 
facts)

I received permission from an author for her book, but it was only for the 
facts.  I couldn't pass on any creative parts.  So I didn't really get useful 
permission.  The facts I could already use within reason.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 09:04:00 2002
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In a message dated 3/29/02 10:42:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
dontharp@onemain.com writes:

Looks good to me.  


> Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
> >>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not 
> responsible
> >>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
> >>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any 
> link
> >>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.


> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html





From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 09:18:35 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 08:43 AM 3/30/02 -0500, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:

>"A Lookup is a service provided by a volunteer who will search through their
>personal or county resources for basic facts (name, birth date, birth place,
>parents, marriage date, spouse, place of marriage, death date, and place of
>death) of a specific person's life needed by the requestor which are not
>copyrighted.  Since Lookup Volunteers are very important to genealogy
>research online, Local Coordinators are encouraged to provide a webpage
>listing contact information for volunteers and the resources they will
>search.  If a lookup volunteer wishes to provide more than public facts, then
>the lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring either that 1) the material
>is not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, permission has been obtained from the
>copyright holder allowing the volunteer to extract and pass on creative
>information from the material."  (Have a link to the copyright part about
>facts)

This is very nice Cheryl!  What do the rest of you think?

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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Something along those links sounds good Teresa. But we need to get the
disclaimer worded correctly because the general public won't see the
sentence that starts the section on the volunteers page, only the
disclaimer.

We could start the section with a sentence like:

"Many of the resources you will link to are not part of The USGenWeb 
Project.  Therefore, we recommend that you add the following disclaimer
to 
your home page:

and then list the disclaimer


From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 13:37:09 2002
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that bring up one incident just last week and I squashed one
local society over copyright issue.

I bluntly pointed out that they can't copyright anything that
had been published BEFORE 1 Jan 1923. That society published
newspaper clippings as is, even clipped the dates from newspapers.

Told them they own copyright ONLY to the index, front and back covers,
and the arrangement itself. Newspaper clippings themselves are
fair game because they were published before 1910.

Never heard from them again.

The importance is the knowledge of what copyright specifics are,
that is:

1. cutoff date of copyright
2. facts as listed on gravemarkers
3. government records (We need to list specific types.)

And explain the difference between straight transcription and
creative transcription. Straight transcriptions are not copyrightable.
(Feist vs RuralTel, 1991).

bottom of all, is simple presentation of information. Mike Goad
made a good site of information about copyright.

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> I really don't want to get into it here but a lot of the authors and
> genealogical societies are 'copyrighting' things that can't be
> copyrighted. However, they harass the CCs about it and the CCs feel it
> just isn't worth the hassle. One CC finally got fed up with it and told
> the genealogical society to 'sue me' or something along those lines [I
> did NOT ask for details] and that was the end of that. Other sites [the
> one I'm thinking of is not a GenWeb site] just ignore copyright figuring
> the owners of the materials aren't going to spend the money on an
> attorney.
> 
> Cheryl

From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 13:37:09 2002
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that's better and list separate section showing the SPs separately
from this disclaimer section.

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Something along those links sounds good Teresa. But we need to get the
> disclaimer worded correctly because the general public won't see the
> sentence that starts the section on the volunteers page, only the
> disclaimer.
> 
> We could start the section with a sentence like:
> 
> "Many of the resources you will link to are not part of The USGenWeb
> Project.  Therefore, we recommend that you add the following disclaimer
> to
> your home page:
> 
> and then list the disclaimer

From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 13:51:49 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 10:40 AM 3/30/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:

>that's better and list separate section showing the SPs separately
>from this disclaimer section.


Explain further what you mean by showing the SPs separately.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 10:39 AM 3/30/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:

Please defer discussion of copyright until it is our formal topic.    I 
would really prefer for the whole committee to address this after the 
subcommittee of Cheryl P, Cheryl R, David, and Rich have presented their 
report.

Thanks!

-Teresa


>that bring up one incident just last week and I squashed one
>local society over copyright issue.
>
>I bluntly pointed out that they can't copyright anything that
>had been published BEFORE 1 Jan 1923. That society published
>newspaper clippings as is, even clipped the dates from newspapers.
>
>Told them they own copyright ONLY to the index, front and back covers,
>and the arrangement itself. Newspaper clippings themselves are
>fair game because they were published before 1910.
>
>Never heard from them again.
>
>The importance is the knowledge of what copyright specifics are,
>that is:
>
>1. cutoff date of copyright
>2. facts as listed on gravemarkers
>3. government records (We need to list specific types.)
>
>And explain the difference between straight transcription and
>creative transcription. Straight transcriptions are not copyrightable.
>(Feist vs RuralTel, 1991).
>
>bottom of all, is simple presentation of information. Mike Goad
>made a good site of information about copyright.
>
>David
>
>Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > I really don't want to get into it here but a lot of the authors and
> > genealogical societies are 'copyrighting' things that can't be
> > copyrighted. However, they harass the CCs about it and the CCs feel it
> > just isn't worth the hassle. One CC finally got fed up with it and told
> > the genealogical society to 'sue me' or something along those lines [I
> > did NOT ask for details] and that was the end of that. Other sites [the
> > one I'm thinking of is not a GenWeb site] just ignore copyright figuring
> > the owners of the materials aren't going to spend the money on an
> > attorney.
> >
> > Cheryl

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sat Mar 30 20:59:45 2002
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We need to list that there are few SPs that are part of the Project
and not the the rest that aren't.

David

merope wrote:
> 
> At 10:40 AM 3/30/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
> 
> >that's better and list separate section showing the SPs separately
> >from this disclaimer section.
> 
> Explain further what you mean by showing the SPs separately.
> 
> -Teresa

From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 07:36:10 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Disclaimer
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<x-flowed>
At 12:32 PM 3/30/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
>We need to list that there are few SPs that are part of the Project
>and not the the rest that aren't.

We'll discuss the SPs later.  The USGenWeb's home page lists the Special 
Projects.  I don't know that the guidelines for the local coordinators 
needs to do so as well.

-Teresa


>David
>
>merope wrote:
> >
> > At 10:40 AM 3/30/02 -0700, W David Samuelsen wrote:
> >
> > >that's better and list separate section showing the SPs separately
> > >from this disclaimer section.
> >
> > Explain further what you mean by showing the SPs separately.
> >
> > -Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 08:36:08 2002
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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:34:52 -0500
From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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<x-flowed>
At 09:42 AM 3/29/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:


>To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The USGenWeb
>Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be
>prominently displayed on your home page.

I like this and have incorporated it into the workign document to read:

"All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project logo 
on the home page.  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at 
<URL>   To inform researchers that your site is a member of The USGenWeb 
Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be 
prominently displayed near the top of your home page."

Thanks Don!

-Teresa

>Don

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 09:06:04 2002
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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:51:23 -0500
From: merope <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
At 08:43 AM 3/30/02 -0500, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:

>"A Lookup is a service provided by a volunteer who will search through their
>personal or county resources for basic facts (name, birth date, birth place,
>parents, marriage date, spouse, place of marriage, death date, and place of
>death) of a specific person's life needed by the requestor which are not
>copyrighted.  Since Lookup Volunteers are very important to genealogy
>research online, Local Coordinators are encouraged to provide a webpage
>listing contact information for volunteers and the resources they will
>search.  If a lookup volunteer wishes to provide more than public facts, then
>the lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring either that 1) the material
>is not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, permission has been obtained from the
>copyright holder allowing the volunteer to extract and pass on creative
>information from the material."  (Have a link to the copyright part about
>facts)

I have incorporated this, with some slight revision, and some wording from 
Don Tharp into the working document.  The lookup section now reads:

" A Lookup is a service provided by a volunteer who will search through 
their personal or county resources for basic facts (name, birth date, birth 
place, parents, marriage date, spouse, place of marriage, death date, and 
place of death, etc.) of a specific person's life needed by the requestor 
which are not copyrighted.  Since Lookup Volunteers are very important to 
online genealogy research, Local Coordinators are encouraged to provide a 
webpage listing contact information for volunteers and the resources they 
will search.  The Local Coordinator may list themselves in the lookups 
list, but you are not obligated to do lookups for the areas you host.  If a 
lookup volunteer wishes to provide more than public facts, then the lookup 
volunteer is responsible for ensuring either that 1) the material is not 
copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, permission has been obtained from the 
copyright holder allowing the volunteer to extract and pass on creative 
information from the material."  <URL for USGenWeb Copyright Policy>"

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 09:13:53 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:01 PM 3/30/02 -0500, merope wrote:

I have looked at all your suggestions for the disclaimer and have written 
up a recommendation for the working document:

"Many of the resources you will link to are "third party" sites; that is, 
they are not part of The USGenWeb Project and are not under its 
control.  Therefore, we recommend that you add the following disclaimer to 
your home page:  "Links to sites that are not part of the USGenWeb Project 
are provided for your convenience and do _not_ imply any endorsement of the 
site or its contents by the USGenWeb Project or its members.  Neither the 
USGenWeb Project nor its members are responsible for the contents of any 
"third party" site which you may access from a link on this page.""

The actual disclaimer is this part: "Links to sites that are not part of 
the USGenWeb Project are provided for your convenience and do _not_ imply 
any endorsement of the sites or their contents by the USGenWeb Project or 
its members.  Neither the USGenWeb Project nor its members are responsible 
for the contents of any "third party" site which you may access from a link 
on this page."

The rest is instruction to the LC as part of the guidelines.   I tried to 
clear up some unclear wording and the confusion between the "links" and the 
sites themselves that David mentioned.  Does this work for everyone?

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 19:26:54 2002
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From: "Paula Vaughan" <pajolova@hotmail.com>
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<x-flowed>
Teresa-

Tina the SC forwarded the notes, from the Guidelines Committee weekly report 
for the week ending March 30, 2002, to the Wisconsin State County 
Coordinators and I just wanted to let you know I do appreciate getting these 
notes as I like to be keep up on what is going on with the Project, etc.

Paula
Waupaca County Coordinator
WI GenWeb Project





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 01 06:40:53 2002
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Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:30:06 -0700
From: W David Samuelsen <dsam@sampubco.com>
Organization: SAMPUBCO
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To: Holly Timm <hollyft@bright.net>
CC: tngibson@att.net, pamreid@comcast.net, gingerh@shawneelink.com,
        bremerr@oclc.org, TVick65536@aol.com, nw_plains_sc_rep@hotmail.com,
        ArtDept@compuserve.com, kheidel@tri.net, tstowell@chattanooga.net,
        ky.quest@gte.net, rkeason@tir.com, betsym@1starnet.com,
        wchs@getgoin.net, janab@slip.net,
        Penny Menges-Rodighiero <pennyr@oregontrail.net>,
        Linda Russell Lewis <cityslic@ix.netcom.com>,
        merope <merope@radix.net>, borks@aracnet.com, dsam@sampubco.com
Subject: Formal complaint against Teresa Lindquist
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ATTENTION: Entire AB, Linda, Penny, Janine, including the lady
who chose to twist to her needs.

Notice:
Teresa Lindquist, YOU are explictly FORBIDDEN to use any part of this
information message for your DBS, whatsoever. Nor are you permitted to
forward this to any list anywhere. - David

Notice:
to the rest, you are NOT authorized to foward this to ANY person
or any list whatsoever except limited to the above named in the 
Carbon Copy list - David

Begin Message:
Completely taken out of context entirely! This amount to slander or
libel.

My PML intercepted this message. The original messages are way below
this message
=====================================================================
A result of your requested PML search.  To refine or cancel this
search, please visit http://pml.rootsweb.com/
=====================================================================
(name of mailing list cut out to protect the forwarder's identity)

FYI......

--- merope <merope@radix.net> wrote:
> To: Daily Board Show
> <dailyboardshow@yahoogroups.com>
> From: merope <merope@radix.net>
> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:18:35 -0500
> Subject: [DBS] Daily Board Show, weekly edition,
> 3/31/2002
> Reply-to: dailyboardshow-owner@yahoogroups.com
> 

<huge snip of most of this issue of the DBS>

> 
> Archives Escapades Corner:  You know that long
> periods of silence from the 
> Archives usually bode no good.  We heard today about
> a transcriber who 
> found out that approximately 75 of her
> transcriptions regarding 
> biographies, obits, and newspaper extractions from
> Wallowa county, OR had 
> been "donated" to the USGenWeb Archives (tm) when it
> was announced by W. 
> David Samuelsen on an AHGP mailing list.  When we
> first heard about this 
> yesterday morning, all items were online and clearly
> showed the 
> transcriber's name and a current copyright.  By
> yesterday afternoon they 
> were all removed.  As it turns out, someone else
> "donated" the records to 
> the Archives (tm) in the transcriber's name. 
> Apparently David Samuelsen 
> told the transcriber that her work was fair game
> because the sources from 
> which she transcribed were in the public domain.  
> After some casual 
> mention of legal action against USGenWeb, Root$web
> and Ancestry.con the 
> misappropriated transcriptions were removed quietly
> and without apology by 
> an Archives staff member.
> 
> ===
> 
> "If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen."
>     ---Motto of the Aspen Daily News
> 
> This has been your Daily Board Show.
> 
> -Teresa Lindquist
> merope@radix.net
> -------
> Daily Board Show, (c) 2002 by Teresa Lindquist, all
> rights reserved.
> 
> 
> 
This is the ORIGINAL message from Janice Borks about HER files.

Dear W. David,

I didn't donate these bios, nor was I asked about taking them.
Why are my bios  and information in your archives?
I have them on my American History and Genealogy Project page
for a reason.

When GenWeb started stealing information from people a couple
of years ago, I moved my stuff specifically because I knew this was
going on.

Janine

> New files in USGenWeb Archives
> <
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/baker/census/1880/
> (please note that this county's census is not done - is in progress)
>
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-jennings-ce.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-johnson-fs.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-johnson-j.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-johnson-jf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-kernan-w.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-knapper-l.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-kuhn-dw.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-kuykendall-wh.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/bios/bio-wedhoff-ar.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hagen-a.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hallgarth-s.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-halms-inf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-halsey-inf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hamilton-r.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-harris-dl.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-heller-f.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hillman-r.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-holbrook-g.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-howerton-lt.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-huff-s.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hulse.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-hunter-ja.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-jennings-w.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-keeler-r.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-kelley-hf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-kimble-e.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-kingery-c.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-kirkland-ap.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-kruse-rw.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-shafer-w.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-shelts.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-sherod-t.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-sloan-j.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-southwick-ap.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-spence-l.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-spurling.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-stanford-r.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-steinks-jc.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-stevenson.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/newspapers/n-storie-m.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hall-a.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hall-jc.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hammack-a.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hammack-jw.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hammond-r.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-harmon-wt.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-harris-dh.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-haun-jf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-haun-l.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-henry-wa.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hepburn-j.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-herzog-h.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hirsh-n.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hockett-l.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hodge-wh.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-holmes-gh.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-holst-e.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hovis-e.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-hulburd-f.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-jennings-a.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-jennings-ce.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-kimble-lw.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-king-se.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-knapp-mi.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-knapper-em.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-kotz-g.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-samms-wp.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-sample-ll.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-sargent-e.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-sasser-em.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-schaupp-a.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-schell-j.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-scott-s.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-shinn-le.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-showers-rw.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-shuss-s.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-simpson-ln.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-singleton-mf.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-sizemore-vl.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-skaggs-ht.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-smmerhouse-e.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-spencer-se.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-stein-j.txt
> http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/or/wallowa/obits/o-stewart-he.txt
> >
>
> The search engine is located at:
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ussearch.htm
> be sure to click button left of "OR" before submitting to search

Here is her 2nd reply with my original reply to her intact.

W David Samuelsen wrote:

> Inasmuch since I do not subscribe to AGHP mailing list, you can
> forward my reply to the list.
>
> It was a surprise when I saw the daily uploads this morning listing
> a lot of Wallowa files and I literally went straight to the files to
> see who submitted them. Your name is listed on every one of them.
>
> Tonight after I got back from work, only to see this "accusation"
> made against me! I went to check the TOC. The submitter is Julie
> Botts.
>
> Penny will not upload any files if she know they were taken from
> another site without permission.
>
> You might want to talk with Julie Botts FIRST before making any
> request to remove the files.
>
> W. David Samuelsen
>

Dear W. David,

I will contact Julie Botts. I have filed a complaint. It came from your
e-mail address
 to the OR list. It did NOT say it was donated by Julie Botts nor I in
your e-mail.
How am I
supposed to know who does what when it doesn't even say. All I have is
an
e-mail with YOUR address that gives files that were supposed to be
donated by
me. I only found out about them by clicking on them. Otherwise I would
have had
no idea that my information was taken.

I will also contact Penny and let her know that my permission was not
given for
this. I am furious.

Janine

Her 3rd reply, again, with my reply to above message intact, courtesy of
Janine

W David Samuelsen wrote:

> I report what is uploaded for the State of Oregon. That is all.
>
> If it's my own work, it won't be announced until it is listed in
> "Daily-Uploads" announcement first. If I know any file comes from
> somewhere else, I would contact the archivst privately and advise
> of the problem.
>
> PS I notified Penny of my reply to you so she will be aware and wait
> for your request. Just please be polite.
>
> David

I would have contacted the person, but I am the person who supposedly
donated! How would you feel if I loaded all your information from your
private
site and didn't bother letting you know and you found out about it that
way.

Would you not be upset? It's common knowledge how I feel about the
Archives.

I contacted Penny and requested Julie's e-mail address and the removal
of
my information. I'll also forward your e-mail with an explanation that
it was a third
party and that you will take the information down.

Janine

Her 4th reply, with part of my reply clipped out by Janine

W David Samuelsen wrote:

> I'm not the one to take files out. Penny is the only person who can
> remove them.
>
> In order to locate Julie Botts, I ran a search using google.com
>
> and guess what, very first hit:?
>
> read this - this is straight from your AGHP site:

Gee, W. David,

I tried that e-mail address to send to her and got the e-mail back. Do
you
have a more current one?

It's neither here nor there. The information is mine and I want it out
of
Linda Lewis's archives. I've contacted Penny and am waiting for
her response.

Janine

FYI, to the Board and others

The files in question were removed promptly by Penny, the state archivst
upon being informed by me immediately.

I did caution Janine that some of her work *MAY BE* on thin ice since
the files in question were all pre-1923 copyright cutoff, meaning
somebody else can transcribe the same information and deposit
in the USGenWeb Archives.

I did tell Janine that Julie Botts can send HER (Julie's) copies to
any place, even if it is Archives, AND Janine's site, for all I care.

Teresa Lindquist OWE me a BIG PUBLIC apology for this incredible
blunder of a slander/libel!!! And owe an apology to Janine, too for
having the effect of dragging her in the mud along with me.

Nowhere in any message between me and Janine was any mention of
lawsuit or whatever it is.

W. David Samuelsen

From ???@??? Mon Apr 01 18:11:08 2002
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I want to remain anonymous but would like to make a point about this. I find 
that the requirement to require provisions for lookup volunteers is sometimes 
the only thing that weeds out web sites run by genealogy societies who use the 
county site purely to generate revenue through their own lookup services. Such 
societies are against free lookups and their are many such sites. Almost every 
county will find lookup volunteers if they post a solicitation for them. I 
think it is one of the very best things about USGenWeb county sites and do not 
think it should just be a recommendation.

Mark Christian

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 09:17:08 -0500, merope wrote:

>Local Coordinators are encouraged to provide a 
>webpage listing contact information for volunteers and the resources they 
>will search.


From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 15:57:04 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] New working document
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<x-flowed>
I have posted a new working document at: 
http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

Let me know what you think!

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 15:57:04 2002
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>>Requirements for Local Coordinators:

Should be all caps like RECOMMENDATIONS.

>>You are free to choose the system(s) which works best for their
project web site. 

works best for YOUR project...

Looks good.

Cheryl



From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 15:57:04 2002
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There is something about this I don't feel comfortable with. It seems as if
we almost need to write a page of definition of terms. Would "entrance
page" rather than "home page" sound better, or be more easily understood?
Richard...

merope wrote:
> 
> At 09:42 AM 3/29/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:
> 
> >To inform researchers that they are being hosted by a member of The USGenWeb
> >Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be
> >prominently displayed on your home page.
> 
> I like this and have incorporated it into the workign document to read:
> 
> "All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project logo
> on the home page.  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at
> <URL>   To inform researchers that your site is a member of The USGenWeb
> Project and to assist in promoting the project, the USGenWeb logo should be
> prominently displayed near the top of your home page."
> 
> Thanks Don!
> 
> -Teresa
> 
> >Don

-- 
 

      Richard M. Howland                IlGenWeb State Coordinator  
      Mailto:RichPump@wf.net            ICQ # 150433539

From ???@??? Sun Mar 31 16:11:53 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 12:40 PM 3/31/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>There is something about this I don't feel comfortable with. It seems as if
>we almost need to write a page of definition of terms. Would "entrance
>page" rather than "home page" sound better, or be more easily understood?
>Richard...


I think "home page" is more or less standard web terminology.  I rarely 
meet anyone who doesn't know what a home page is.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 01 18:40:52 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Lookups and County Resources
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<x-flowed>
This sounds great!

Morgan

At 08:51 AM 3/31/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I have incorporated this, with some slight revision, and some wording from 
>Don Tharp into the working document.  The lookup section now reads:
>
>" A Lookup is a service provided by a volunteer who will search through 
>their personal or county resources for basic facts (name, birth date, 
>birth place, parents, marriage date, spouse, place of marriage, death 
>date, and place of death, etc.) of a specific person's life needed by the 
>requestor which are not copyrighted.  Since Lookup Volunteers are very 
>important to online genealogy research, Local Coordinators are encouraged 
>to provide a webpage listing contact information for volunteers and the 
>resources they will search.  The Local Coordinator may list themselves in 
>the lookups list, but you are not obligated to do lookups for the areas 
>you host.  If a lookup volunteer wishes to provide more than public facts, 
>then the lookup volunteer is responsible for ensuring either that 1) the 
>material is not copyrighted; 2) if copyrighted, permission has been 
>obtained from the copyright holder allowing the volunteer to extract and 
>pass on creative information from the material."  <URL for USGenWeb 
>Copyright Policy>"
>
>-Teresa


</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
Just my opinion, and I know it's probably not a popular one . . .
I'm happy to display the logo, btw.
As long as a visitor has to see the logo, whether it be on a gateway page 
or whatever, why does it matter which page it's on? Even if it's not on the 
'home' page, if it's on a page that a visitor will definitely see, should 
we just let it go?

Morgan

At 08:07 AM 3/29/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:28 PM 3/26/02 -0600, Don Tharp wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >>1. All websites shall include prominent display of The USGenWeb Project
>> >>logo ***on the county web site entry page, defined as the page that opens
>> >>when accessed from the county state page or other web pages that may link
>> >>to the county site.***  You will find official USGenWeb Project logos at
>> >><URL>  You are recommended to display this logo
>> >>near the top of your home page.
>> >>I appreciate your consideration of my thoughts.
>>
>>The wording of this recommendation is going to be difficult. For instance,
>>many
>>county are accessed from the state page through an entry page before
>>getting to
>>the county page. In fact every county in the state of Indiana is gated from
>>the
>>state county links page. If one waits long enough the Indiana gates
>>automatically takes you to the county page. However, this 
>>doesn't  necessarily
>>occur in other states. I would hope we can write the recommendation in such a
>>way that no one interprets it to be the first page linked by the state county
>>links page if that is a gateway/entry page.
>
>Good morning everyone, its catch up day! :)
>
>It appears that we have several different problems with this issue of 
>defining what page the logo should be on:
>
>1) definition of "home", "main", or "index" page--some people apparently 
>use dummy pages for this and put logos there rather than on what might be 
>considered the main page for their site. There's probably nothing we can 
>do about these people; any suggestion we come up with they will probably 
>find a way around.
>
>2) gateway pages--several states use these, particularly when, like KSGW, 
>they have free server space for all counties, but some people have their 
>pages on other servers.  Nothing wrong with this, but it makes defining 
>the "home" page as the one linked to from the state page problematic.
>
>3) "dual" pages--some people use the same pages for two or more online 
>genealogy projects.  In several states, LCs are not allowed to have their 
>USGenWeb page be the same page as for their other sites, so they have a 
>separate home page for each project but all the rest of the pages are 
>shared.  I don't think this causes a problem for us so long as the USGW 
>logo is prominently displayed on the page linked to from the 
>state.  However, sometimes the _same_ page is used as the lead-in for all 
>projects and the USGW logo has to jockey for space among other logos and 
>banners.   There's currently no USGW rule about dual pages and in the 
>absence of such a rule, it will be difficult to recommend that "our logo 
>be bigger than theirs".
>
>So, what to do about this?  The bylaws, which are the basis for this 
>requirement, say only that prominent placement of the logo is 
>required.  We have recommended so far that "prominent" should mean "near 
>the top of the home page".  Is it worth it to further expand this 
>definition?  I don't think there'd be any support at all for recommending 
>the logo be on all pages.  Getting into complicated definitions of what is 
>a "home" page may just end  up confusing people, and gateway pages are 
>another matter entirely and only affect a relatively small proportion of 
>the project.
>
>What it comes down to for me is that a large majority of USGW members are 
>proud to display the logo.  We need merely to give them gentle guidance on 
>where it might promote USGW the best and I think most everyone will follow 
>it.   People that don't want to display the logo won't display it, no 
>matter what we recommend.  So in the interest of not alienating the big 
>chunk of the project that does happily display the logo, I am happy with 
>the way the recommendation is worded currently and suggest no further revision.
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa
>
>


</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
Yes, I think we should.

Morgan

At 08:12 AM 3/29/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:04 PM 3/26/02 -0600, ILGenWeb State Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>>Links to Third Party Sites are not under the control of the USGenWeb
>>Project or members and the USGenWeb Project or members are not responsible
>>for the contents of any linked site.  The USGenWeb Project or members
>>provides links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link
>>does not imply the endorsement by the USGenWeb Project of the site.
>
>This suggestion for a disclaimer regarding "third party" sites has been 
>provided by Rich Howland, and has met with generally positive 
>comment.   Should we go ahead and include this as a recommended disclaimer 
>for Local Coordinators to add to their home pages?
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net


</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>

For your consideration, this comment was submitted by a member.



>I want to remain anonymous but would like to make a point about this. I find
>that the requirement to require provisions for lookup volunteers is sometimes
>the only thing that weeds out web sites run by genealogy societies who use 
>the
>county site purely to generate revenue through their own lookup services. 
>Such
>societies are against free lookups and their are many such sites. Almost 
>every
>county will find lookup volunteers if they post a solicitation for them. I
>think it is one of the very best things about USGenWeb county sites and do 
>not
>think it should just be a recommendation.


-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 06:30 PM 4/1/02 -0500, Morgan Edward Johnson wrote:
>Just my opinion, and I know it's probably not a popular one . . .
>I'm happy to display the logo, btw.
>As long as a visitor has to see the logo, whether it be on a gateway page 
>or whatever, why does it matter which page it's on? Even if it's not on 
>the 'home' page, if it's on a page that a visitor will definitely see, 
>should we just let it go?

I think that has been the practice thus far.  And I'm not particularly 
opposed to a little benign neglect in this respect either. :)

We're here to decide what's best to recommend.  If we recommend that 
someone do something a certain way, people are still free to adapt it to 
their own situation.  And what you note above falls under that I think.

-Teresa


</x-flowed>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern
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How do you know what page a visitor will 'definitely' see besides the
home page? Crystal ball? <g>

Cheryl

-----Original Message-----
From: Morgan Edward Johnson [mailto:morgan@usroots.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:30 PM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: Project Logo Placement Concern


Just my opinion, and I know it's probably not a popular one . . . I'm
happy to display the logo, btw. As long as a visitor has to see the
logo, whether it be on a gateway page 
or whatever, why does it matter which page it's on? Even if it's not on
the 
'home' page, if it's on a page that a visitor will definitely see,
should 
we just let it go?

Morgan



From ???@??? Wed Apr 03 06:37:16 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 12:21 PM 3/31/02 -0500, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> >>Requirements for Local Coordinators:
>
>Should be all caps like RECOMMENDATIONS.
>
> >>You are free to choose the system(s) which works best for their
>project web site.
>
>works best for YOUR project...
>
>Looks good.

Done and done!

Thanks,

-Teresa



>Cheryl

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
  Good morning folks!

Since conversation on the lookups seems to have died down, lets move on to 
discussing "Local Resources".

First we need to decide whether LCs be _required_ to provide a 
links/contact info for local resources or should it be a recommended part 
of their page?

Also, we should suggest some types of local resources for them to consider 
listing.  I will start the ball rolling on that with the easy ones. <g>

Contact information [address, phone, fax, email, website] for local 
resources could include such items as:

county courthouse
local gen society
local historical society
local public library
local museums

any other suggestions?

-Teresa

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<x-flowed>
I have posted a new working document at: 
http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

I made Cheryl's recommended changes and also numbered the items within each 
section to make it a bit easier to read. Does it look OK to everyone?

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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Looks fine to me so far.

Sorry to be behind--my ISP is having some problems with email.  While I don't seem to have a problem sending it--seems the only time I can download fully is the morning, when I try in the evening I might only get a few emails before it shuts off.

Alice A 
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/3/02 at 6:38 AM merope wrote:

>I have posted a new working document at: 
>http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt
>
>I made Cheryl's recommended changes and also numbered the items within
>each 
>section to make it a bit easier to read. Does it look OK to everyone?
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net



From ???@??? Thu Apr 04 06:33:08 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
Do others feel that this should be a required item? I think many people 
visit USGenWeb pages, and this is the sort of information they're hoping to 
find all together in one place. There really aren't that many requirements 
for the LCs, and this one is relatively easy. Most can even find this 
information on the web and just paste it on their pages.
I don't think we should dictate what institutions they list there. Just 
provide examples, like you did below.
I don't think we should dictate what contact information should be listed 
for each since what is available will vary.

btw, I really like that we've split up local resources and lookups into two 
different categories.

Morgan

At 06:35 AM 4/3/02, you wrote:
>  Good morning folks!
>
>Since conversation on the lookups seems to have died down, lets move on to 
>discussing "Local Resources".
>
>First we need to decide whether LCs be _required_ to provide a 
>links/contact info for local resources or should it be a recommended part 
>of their page?
>
>Also, we should suggest some types of local resources for them to consider 
>listing.  I will start the ball rolling on that with the easy ones. <g>
>
>Contact information [address, phone, fax, email, website] for local 
>resources could include such items as:
>
>county courthouse
>local gen society
>local historical society
>local public library
>local museums
>
>any other suggestions?
>
>-Teresa

</x-flowed>
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I wouldn't add local museums. Lord knows what some people call museums.
Where I live there is a knife museum, a dragon museum...you get the
picture. 

I think we should limit any requirements to PUBLIC offices such as
county clerk, public library, etc. Some local G&Hs don't want to
cooperate so you may raise problems if you list them. I say Suggest that
other places [besides PUBLIC offices] be included but don't require it.

Cheryl


From ???@??? Thu Apr 04 06:33:08 2002
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In a message dated 4/3/2002 6:27:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
merope@Radix.Net writes:


> county courthouse
> local gen society
> local historical society
> local public library
> local museums (dealing with genealogy)
> 
> I'm not too concerned about whether the Historical or Genealogical 
> Societies cooperate with us, but it is information that our vistors need to 
> know should they need to contact them for information we can't provide.  I 
> feel all these should be required information listed.  If an LC's county 
> doesn't have one of these, then obviously they can't list it.  So these 
> would be the basic requirements for a local resource page if your county 
> has them.
> 
> 
> >> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
>> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
>> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
>> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
>> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
>> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
>> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
>> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
>> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
>> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
>> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html
> 



From ???@??? Thu Apr 04 06:33:08 2002
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I wouldn't oppose it, just want to be sure it is understood some
counties have a problem. I find it irritating when I go to a county that
doesn't have these addresses. 

Cheryl

-----Original Message-----
From: INJohnCo@aol.com [mailto:INJohnCo@aol.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 6:18 PM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources


In a message dated 4/3/2002 6:27:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
merope@Radix.Net writes:


> county courthouse
> local gen society
> local historical society
> local public library
> local museums (dealing with genealogy)
> 
> I'm not too concerned about whether the Historical or Genealogical
> Societies cooperate with us, but it is information that our vistors
need to 
> know should they need to contact them for information we can't
provide.  I 
> feel all these should be required information listed.  If an LC's
county 
> doesn't have one of these, then obviously they can't list it.  So
these 
> would be the basic requirements for a local resource page if your
county 
> has them.
> 
> 
> >> Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
>> INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator 
>> www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
>> INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator 
>> www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
>> INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator 
>> www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
>> Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator 
>> www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
>> Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator 
>> www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html
> 





From ???@??? Thu Apr 04 06:33:22 2002
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Haven't decided in my own mind whether this should be a "required" or a "recommended" addition.  I know it's very handy to have this information, and I have included it on my own pages.  It should be fairly easy to find, either on the 'net, or in the Handy Book or Red Book.

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/3/02 at 6:35 AM merope wrote:

>Good morning folks!
>
>Since conversation on the lookups seems to have died down, lets move on to 
>discussing "Local Resources".
>
>First we need to decide whether LCs be _required_ to provide a 
>links/contact info for local resources or should it be a recommended part 
>of their page?
>
>Also, we should suggest some types of local resources for them to consider 
>listing.  I will start the ball rolling on that with the easy ones. <g>
>
>Contact information [address, phone, fax, email, website] for local 
>resources could include such items as:
>
>county courthouse
>local gen society
>local historical society
>local public library
>local museums
>
>any other suggestions?
>
>-Teresa



From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 09:39:53 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:36 PM 4/3/02 -0800, DC & Alice Allen wrote:

>Haven't decided in my own mind whether this should be a "required" or a 
>"recommended" addition.  I know it's very handy to have this information, 
>and I have included it on my own pages.  It should be fairly easy to find, 
>either on the 'net, or in the Handy Book or Red Book.


So far the handful that have commented came down on the side of requiring 
the section, but not requiring any specific items to be linked.   There 
hasn't been a lot of discussion on this, but I agree with both Alice and 
Morgan that this is generally easy info to get, it will be very useful to 
visitors, and we really require very little of the LCs as it is now.  I 
would be in favor of requiring the section, and providing examples of 
recommended items to list.

However, I would like to know how others on the committee feel about 
this.  Please indicate whether or not you think that a "Local Resources" 
section should be "Required" or "Recommended".

After we have a clear picture of where the committee stands on this, we can 
work on the list of recommended/required resources.

BTW, I apologize for not being around much this week... I have been so busy 
at work I come home dog-tired and don't have the strength even to point and 
click. :)

Thanks!

-Teresa
merope@radix.net





</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 18:50:12 2002
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Subject: RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week ending 6 April 2002
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GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 6 2002

===
Local Resources:  On April 3rd, the committee began to discuss the
"Local
Resources" section of the revised guidelines.  This is meant to be a
page
or section of the site that would contain contact information for such
things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical
societies, etc.  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not
this
section should be required or recommended.  This discussion is
ongoing, but
in general the Committee seems inclined at this time to recommend that
the
section be required but that specific items be recommended.



Theresa... I think the committee is getting itself into an area here
that it needs to stay out of.  Recommend, yes, but start saying it is
required and you'll start getting flak from us old timers, especially
those of us in Ky that started this mess.  There are only 3
requirements...
	1. provide for queries
	2. place logo and link to USGW and logo and link to XXGenWeb, [If a
logo is not available, then just link to the state page]
	3. lookups or bibliography page.

Most of us do put the info for societies, libraries etc, without being
told to, but USGW does not need to be telling us we *MUST* add them or
anything else. ;-)

Best,
nt







From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 13:20:08 2002
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At 09:37 AM 4/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:
I favor required.

Don

<snip?
>However, I would like to know how others on the committee feel about 
>this.  Please indicate whether or not you think that a "Local Resources" 
>section should be "Required" or "Recommended".
>
>After we have a clear picture of where the committee stands on this, we can 
>work on the list of recommended/required resources.
>
>BTW, I apologize for not being around much this week... I have been so busy 
>at work I come home dog-tired and don't have the strength even to point and 
>click. :)
>
>Thanks!
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net
> 


From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 13:20:08 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Guidelines Committee report for the week ending 6 April 2002
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<x-flowed>
Permission to forward where appropriate is granted.

GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 6 2002

===

On March 30, the weekly report was submitted to the Project and one comment 
concerning some typos in the working document was received.  These have 
been corrected.  One comment was received from a project member who 
recommended that Local Coordinators be required to provide lookups.  This 
comment was forwarded to the committee for its consideration.

-

Local Resources:  On April 3rd, the committee began to discuss the "Local 
Resources" section of the revised guidelines.  This is meant to be a page 
or section of the site that would contain contact information for such 
things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical 
societies, etc.  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not this 
section should be required or recommended.  This discussion is ongoing, but 
in general the Committee seems inclined at this time to recommend that the 
section be required but that specific items be recommended.

===

The current version of the working document is posted 
at:  http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

Please address comments to Teresa Lindquist <merope@radix.net>

-Teresa Lindquist
Chair, Guidelines Committee
Representative At Large, USGenWeb Project
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 20:04:34 2002
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<x-flowed>

A comment from a project member.

I don't know what to say about this other than that our job with this 
committee is to figure out how to improve the Guidelines.  If we just 
assume at the outset that nothing further can be required of members, then 
there is no point to this committee.  I expect we will get flak _whenever_ 
we suggest any change whatsoever and we also need to consider that adding 
requirements may make these suggested revisions impossible to get past the 
Board. But again, if we are not willing to take our best shot at improving 
the Guidelines for the Project, we are wasting our time.

Comments?

-Teresa


> >
>To: <merope@radix.net>
>Subject: RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week ending 6 April 
>2002
>Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:44:55 -0500
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
>Importance: Normal
>
>
>
>GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 6 2002
>
>===
>Local Resources:  On April 3rd, the committee began to discuss the
>"Local
>Resources" section of the revised guidelines.  This is meant to be a
>page
>or section of the site that would contain contact information for such
>things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical
>societies, etc.  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not
>this
>section should be required or recommended.  This discussion is
>ongoing, but
>in general the Committee seems inclined at this time to recommend that
>the
>section be required but that specific items be recommended.
>
>
>
>Theresa... I think the committee is getting itself into an area here
>that it needs to stay out of.  Recommend, yes, but start saying it is
>required and you'll start getting flak from us old timers, especially
>those of us in Ky that started this mess.  There are only 3
>requirements...
>         1. provide for queries
>         2. place logo and link to USGW and logo and link to XXGenWeb, [If a
>logo is not available, then just link to the state page]
>         3. lookups or bibliography page.
>
>Most of us do put the info for societies, libraries etc, without being
>told to, but USGW does not need to be telling us we *MUST* add them or
>anything else. ;-)

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 20:04:34 2002
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Okay, I've decided--

Okay by me to make a "Local Resources" section required.  

Alice A
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/7/02 at 9:37 AM merope wrote:

<snip>
>
>However, I would like to know how others on the committee feel about 
>this.  Please indicate whether or not you think that a "Local Resources" 
>section should be "Required" or "Recommended".
>
<snip>

From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 06:28:36 2002
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That person needs to come out of cave.

1996 is a long time ago considering how far Internet have gone in
only 6 years. What was not available is now available. With
only 5-10 percent of sites already in various search engines, every
resource should be checked.


David Samuelsen

merope wrote:
> 
> A comment from a project member.
> 
> I don't know what to say about this other than that our job with this
> committee is to figure out how to improve the Guidelines.  If we just
> assume at the outset that nothing further can be required of members, then
> there is no point to this committee.  I expect we will get flak _whenever_
> we suggest any change whatsoever and we also need to consider that adding
> requirements may make these suggested revisions impossible to get past the
> Board. But again, if we are not willing to take our best shot at improving
> the Guidelines for the Project, we are wasting our time.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> -Teresa
> 
> > >
> >To: <merope@radix.net>
> >Subject: RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week ending 6 April
> >2002
> >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:44:55 -0500
> >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
> >Importance: Normal
> >
> >
> >
> >GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 6 2002
> >
> >===
> >Local Resources:  On April 3rd, the committee began to discuss the
> >"Local
> >Resources" section of the revised guidelines.  This is meant to be a
> >page
> >or section of the site that would contain contact information for such
> >things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical
> >societies, etc.  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not
> >this
> >section should be required or recommended.  This discussion is
> >ongoing, but
> >in general the Committee seems inclined at this time to recommend that
> >the
> >section be required but that specific items be recommended.
> >
> >
> >
> >Theresa... I think the committee is getting itself into an area here
> >that it needs to stay out of.  Recommend, yes, but start saying it is
> >required and you'll start getting flak from us old timers, especially
> >those of us in Ky that started this mess.  There are only 3
> >requirements...
> >         1. provide for queries
> >         2. place logo and link to USGW and logo and link to XXGenWeb, [If a
> >logo is not available, then just link to the state page]
> >         3. lookups or bibliography page.
> >
> >Most of us do put the info for societies, libraries etc, without being
> >told to, but USGW does not need to be telling us we *MUST* add them or
> >anything else. ;-)

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Local Resources

required:
government sites pertaining to the county/state

strong recommended:
local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined
by the LCs themselves.

encouragement of recommends:
link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns,
local historic sites.

David

DC & Alice Allen wrote:
> 
> Okay, I've decided--
> 
> Okay by me to make a "Local Resources" section required.
> 
> Alice A
> USGenWeb Project CC for
> 
> Marshall Co., KS
> Geauga Co., OH
> Seneca Co., OH
> Clark Co., WA
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 4/7/02 at 9:37 AM merope wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> >
> >However, I would like to know how others on the committee feel about
> >this.  Please indicate whether or not you think that a "Local Resources"
> >section should be "Required" or "Recommended".
> >
> <snip>

From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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Local Resources - Required

If nothing ever changed, I would still fit in my wedding dress!!

Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html

From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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From: Lorraine Sonnenberg Newsome <rainelane@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
At 08:06 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Local Resources - Required

I agree. Local Resources should be Required.

>If nothing ever changed, I would still fit in my wedding dress!!

Or I could fit into at least *one* of mine.... <giggle>.

Sunny

</x-flowed>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:50:54 -0400
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Bed and breakfasts? Are we running an advertising service? How about
carnivals? Amusement parks?


-----Original Message-----
From: W David Samuelsen [mailto:dsam@sampubco.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:08 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources


Local Resources

required:
government sites pertaining to the county/state

strong recommended:
local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined by the
LCs themselves.

encouragement of recommends:
link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns, local
historic sites.



From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
I knew what David meant. I've tried to incorporate some modern-day things, 
too. This is a help to people planning research trips to the area.

Morgan

At 10:50 AM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Bed and breakfasts? Are we running an advertising service? How about
>carnivals? Amusement parks?
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: W David Samuelsen [mailto:dsam@sampubco.com]
>Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:08 AM
>To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
>
>
>Local Resources
>
>required:
>government sites pertaining to the county/state
>
>strong recommended:
>local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined by the
>LCs themselves.
>
>encouragement of recommends:
>link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns, local
>historic sites.


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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http://www.rootsweb.com/~orbaker/hotels.htm
this explains all. Not only that, just about every one of the places
are historic themselves!

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Bed and breakfasts? Are we running an advertising service? How about
> carnivals? Amusement parks?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: W David Samuelsen [mailto:dsam@sampubco.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:08 AM
> To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
> 
> Local Resources
> 
> required:
> government sites pertaining to the county/state
> 
> strong recommended:
> local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined by the
> LCs themselves.
> 
> encouragement of recommends:
> link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns, local
> historic sites.

From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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I can see the usefullness of bed & breakfasts......for all those who are coming to do on site research.  It might be a nice "perk" to have a listing of places to stay while in town.

Alice

USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/8/02 at 10:50 AM Cheryl Rothwell wrote:

>Bed and breakfasts? Are we running an advertising service? How about
>carnivals? Amusement parks?
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: W David Samuelsen [mailto:dsam@sampubco.com] 
>Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:08 AM
>To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
>
>
>Local Resources
>
>required:
>government sites pertaining to the county/state
>
>strong recommended:
>local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined by the
>LCs themselves.
>
>encouragement of recommends:
>link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns, local
>historic sites.



From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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True--one of the ladies in our local gen. society has a bed & breakfast in Ridgefield (WA), and it was a historic home.  Researching the history of this home is what got her interested in doing her own genealogy.

Alice
USGenWeb Project CC for

Marshall Co., KS
Geauga Co., OH
Seneca Co., OH
Clark Co., WA

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/8/02 at 12:24 PM W David Samuelsen wrote:

>http://www.rootsweb.com/~orbaker/hotels.htm
>this explains all. Not only that, just about every one of the places
>are historic themselves!
>
>David
>


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Why bed and breakfasts and not Holiday Inn? How about a restaurant
guide? Maybe a better suggestion would be to link to the Chamber of
Commerce?



From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:24 2002
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Sorry David. It looks like advertising to me. I'm sure not everyone
agrees with me.


From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:35 2002
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I've been to those ones in Baker City, OR because my mother lives
there. I can tell you they sure don't advertise much! I didn't
even know they were the Beds and Breakfasts to begin with.

Baer House betrayed nothing of the nature other than the historic
house. Ditto for Grant House. Geiser Grand is restored (1985-1998)
hotel built before 1898. Old Victorian charm! And the prices
are extremely affordable compared to "Holiday Inns". Not all
places have chains. None of Hilton, Holiday, Sheraton, etc in
Baker City. All local. Even in Halfway, Richland and Sumpter.

And I don't want to be pestered by emails inquiring about the
beds and breakfasts anymore.

Again, nothing wrong with providing a local resource for them to
look up and contact themselves.

David

Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Sorry David. It looks like advertising to me. I'm sure not everyone
> agrees with me.

From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 23:14:35 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
Pestered? Pestered by whom? By us? You brought it up, and we're discussing it.

Morgan

At 06:12 PM 4/8/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>I've been to those ones in Baker City, OR because my mother lives
>there. I can tell you they sure don't advertise much! I didn't
>even know they were the Beds and Breakfasts to begin with.
>
>Baer House betrayed nothing of the nature other than the historic
>house. Ditto for Grant House. Geiser Grand is restored (1985-1998)
>hotel built before 1898. Old Victorian charm! And the prices
>are extremely affordable compared to "Holiday Inns". Not all
>places have chains. None of Hilton, Holiday, Sheraton, etc in
>Baker City. All local. Even in Halfway, Richland and Sumpter.
>
>And I don't want to be pestered by emails inquiring about the
>beds and breakfasts anymore.
>
>Again, nothing wrong with providing a local resource for them to
>look up and contact themselves.
>
>David
>
>Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > Sorry David. It looks like advertising to me. I'm sure not everyone
> > agrees with me.


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Tue Apr 09 06:24:15 2002
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not you. Those who visited my county site and kept asking about
them. After I put the info up, I have not bee pestered again since
then and that's 3 years now.

David

Morgan Edward Johnson wrote:
> 
> Pestered? Pestered by whom? By us? You brought it up, and we're discussing it.
> 
> Morgan
> 
> At 06:12 PM 4/8/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >I've been to those ones in Baker City, OR because my mother lives
> >there. I can tell you they sure don't advertise much! I didn't
> >even know they were the Beds and Breakfasts to begin with.
> >
> >Baer House betrayed nothing of the nature other than the historic
> >house. Ditto for Grant House. Geiser Grand is restored (1985-1998)
> >hotel built before 1898. Old Victorian charm! And the prices
> >are extremely affordable compared to "Holiday Inns". Not all
> >places have chains. None of Hilton, Holiday, Sheraton, etc in
> >Baker City. All local. Even in Halfway, Richland and Sumpter.
> >
> >And I don't want to be pestered by emails inquiring about the
> >beds and breakfasts anymore.
> >
> >Again, nothing wrong with providing a local resource for them to
> >look up and contact themselves.
> >
> >David
> >
> >Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry David. It looks like advertising to me. I'm sure not everyone
> > > agrees with me.

From ???@??? Tue Apr 09 06:24:15 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
At 10:17 PM 4/8/02 -0400, Morgan Edward Johnson wrote:

>Pestered? Pestered by whom? By us? You brought it up, and we're discussing it.

When I consider "local resource" listings, I think more of places with 
genealogical records of interest to genealogists, not places to rest their 
tired heads after a long dusty day in the county courthouse storeroom. 
<g>   I think that listing commercial businesses like bed and breakfasts 
should be up to the LCs. We can certainly suggest it as something they can 
consider, particularly if the establishments have some local historical 
interest, or are particularly well located for genealogy research, or 
something, but I don't think they should be forced to list them.   A link 
to the Chamber of Commerce, as someone suggested, is an excellent idea and 
would cover many bases.

We are just more or less brainstorming ideas now for things to list.  Local 
historical sites, libraries, special collections, cemeteries, churches, 
etc, even places to sleep, should all be considered as useful to 
genealogists.  As long as we are just throwing out ideas for LCs to 
consider as they make their pages, we have given more help than exists now 
in the guidelines.

-Teresa


>Morgan
>
>At 06:12 PM 4/8/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>>I've been to those ones in Baker City, OR because my mother lives
>>there. I can tell you they sure don't advertise much! I didn't
>>even know they were the Beds and Breakfasts to begin with.
>>
>>Baer House betrayed nothing of the nature other than the historic
>>house. Ditto for Grant House. Geiser Grand is restored (1985-1998)
>>hotel built before 1898. Old Victorian charm! And the prices
>>are extremely affordable compared to "Holiday Inns". Not all
>>places have chains. None of Hilton, Holiday, Sheraton, etc in
>>Baker City. All local. Even in Halfway, Richland and Sumpter.
>>
>>And I don't want to be pestered by emails inquiring about the
>>beds and breakfasts anymore.
>>
>>Again, nothing wrong with providing a local resource for them to
>>look up and contact themselves.
>>
>>David
>>
>>Cheryl Rothwell wrote:
>> >
>> > Sorry David. It looks like advertising to me. I'm sure not everyone
>> > agrees with me.
>

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 07 18:50:12 2002
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:38:26 -0400
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I would support it being required as long as we are careful in the list
of what we are requiring -- like government offices and libraries --
with the rest suggested.

Should the county that is home to the state capitol be required to list
all the state facilities there?

Cheryl


From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 06:28:36 2002
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To: <KYGEN-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: "Teresa Lindquist" <merope@radix.net>
References: <NEBBIGFIIPADOHKAPCFIOELOGMAA.trice@vci.net> <4.2.2.20020407212036.01d02ea0@mail.insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: [KYGEN] RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week  ending 6 April 2002
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You guys should consider sending your comments to Teresa merope@radix.net as
well as this list. I am sure she would be happy to forward them to the
committee and would appreciate the input.

Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill LaBach" <wmlabach1@insightBB.com>
To: <KYGEN-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [KYGEN] RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week
ending 6 April 2002


> Hi Folks,
>          I am a practicing attorney and don't have much time to travel
> someplace to do research. I do quite a bit on the Internet although taking
> it with a grain of salt. We don't even have a list of things recommended
to
> be on web sites. I can see a lot of support in the group for "states
> rights" but that is just a recipe for getting into a lot of trouble. From
> my experience it would be helpful to see some of the following on all the
> USGenWeb county sites:
> 1. At least some brief history of the county including when it was formed
> and what it was formed from,
> 2. Some mention about what expected county records have been destroyed
and
> no longer exist. For example in Montgomery County there are no marriage
> records before 1863,
> 3. Some mention about what census records no longer exist, such as all
> census records in Kentucky for 1790 and 1800,
> 4. Some map showing the location of the County. Most sites already have
this,
> 5. A list of books in print about the County,
> 6. A search engine to search the entire site. These are free,
> 7. the Committee recommendation of contact information for such
> things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical
> societies, etc. seems like a good idea,
> 8. The minumum requirements we already have are good:
> a. provide for queries
> b. place logo and link to USGW and logo and link to XXGenWeb, [If a
> logo is not available, then just link to the state page]
> c. lookups or bibliography page, and
> 9. A statement of when the page was last updated. I think all you have to
> do is add this to code for your page: <p>Page last updated <!--webbot
> bot="Timestamp" s-type="EDITED" s-format="%A, %B %d, %Y %I:%M:%S
%p" -->.</p>.
>          I'm not trying to formulate any minimum standards and there may
be
> other things I forgot to mention above. Being a lawyer, I am wondering
> about "ownership" of the web site. I certainly don't own any right to be a
> USGenWeb site. I may have some rights to the Code but this seems to me
> personally to be of little importance and whatever ownership there may be
> is probably devoid of monetary value. My activities impress me as being
> sort of like a charitable donation of my time and knowledge.
> Bill LaBach, Madison and Montgomery Counties.
>
>
>
> ==============================
> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records,
go to:
> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
>
>


From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 06:28:36 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee
  report for the week ending 6 April  2002
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<x-flowed>
Like you, Teresa, I disagree with this person. Things evolve. Change 
happens. We're proposing changes for the good of everyone.

Morgan

At 06:55 PM 4/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>A comment from a project member.
>
>I don't know what to say about this other than that our job with this 
>committee is to figure out how to improve the Guidelines.  If we just 
>assume at the outset that nothing further can be required of members, then 
>there is no point to this committee.  I expect we will get flak _whenever_ 
>we suggest any change whatsoever and we also need to consider that adding 
>requirements may make these suggested revisions impossible to get past the 
>Board. But again, if we are not willing to take our best shot at improving 
>the Guidelines for the Project, we are wasting our time.
>
>Comments?
>
>-Teresa
>
>
>> >
>>To: <merope@radix.net>
>>Subject: RE: [DBS] Guidelines Committee report for the week ending 6 
>>April 2002
>>Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:44:55 -0500
>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
>>Importance: Normal
>>
>>
>>
>>GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 6 2002
>>
>>===
>>Local Resources:  On April 3rd, the committee began to discuss the
>>"Local
>>Resources" section of the revised guidelines.  This is meant to be a
>>page
>>or section of the site that would contain contact information for such
>>things as county courthouses, public libraries, local genealogical
>>societies, etc.  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not
>>this
>>section should be required or recommended.  This discussion is
>>ongoing, but
>>in general the Committee seems inclined at this time to recommend that
>>the
>>section be required but that specific items be recommended.
>>
>>
>>
>>Theresa... I think the committee is getting itself into an area here
>>that it needs to stay out of.  Recommend, yes, but start saying it is
>>required and you'll start getting flak from us old timers, especially
>>those of us in Ky that started this mess.  There are only 3
>>requirements...
>>         1. provide for queries
>>         2. place logo and link to USGW and logo and link to XXGenWeb, [If a
>>logo is not available, then just link to the state page]
>>         3. lookups or bibliography page.
>>
>>Most of us do put the info for societies, libraries etc, without being
>>told to, but USGW does not need to be telling us we *MUST* add them or
>>anything else. ;-)


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 08 06:28:36 2002
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Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:12:32 -0500
From: Connie Snyder <cjsnyder@alltel.net>
Organization: NEGenWeb Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~negenweb/
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>  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not this
> section should be required or recommended.
>

Hi Teresa,

>From what I remember, lookup pages were required at first, but then we
began to run into the problem of copyright on those lookups. (So many of
the local records have been 'published' by local societies.) That's when
it became 'recommended' but not required. I feel that this should still
be the case.

In some of our really rural counties about the only place that provides
good resources for lookups are the local societies. They are usually
connected in some way with the people at the courthouse too. (usually a
second cousin, once removed. <g>) If they don't want free lookups done
from their publications, then it's very difficult to provide them. They
are usually working on a shoestring budget and can't see that giving
anything away free will help them. We try to encourage people in those
cases to only provide the fact that a surname may be in a certain
resource and where it can be found. It's not a good idea to make enemies
of the local societies or they will never work with you on anything. If
this happens in a county, we will usually steer people to the local
society for more research than what we have from public record. This
policy has seemed to work well for us so far, since some of those
societies are now contacting us and wanting to work to either post more
information or to do more lookups for free themselves. They've found
that it actually helps to bring in some extra finances in the long run.
Since it's a recommendation, this gives us a little leeway to work on
relations with the local people if we don't live in the county
ourselves.

Connie



From ???@??? Wed Apr 10 06:47:49 2002
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<x-flowed>

Another comment from a Project member for your consideration.

-Teresa


>Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:12:32 -0500
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>To: merope@radix.net
>Subject: Re: USGENWEB-ALL-D Digest V02 #214
>
> >  The Committee is currently discussing whether or not this
> > section should be required or recommended.
> >
>
>Hi Teresa,
>
> >From what I remember, lookup pages were required at first, but then we
>began to run into the problem of copyright on those lookups. (So many of
>the local records have been 'published' by local societies.) That's when
>it became 'recommended' but not required. I feel that this should still
>be the case.
>
>In some of our really rural counties about the only place that provides
>good resources for lookups are the local societies. They are usually
>connected in some way with the people at the courthouse too. (usually a
>second cousin, once removed. <g>) If they don't want free lookups done
>from their publications, then it's very difficult to provide them. They
>are usually working on a shoestring budget and can't see that giving
>anything away free will help them. We try to encourage people in those
>cases to only provide the fact that a surname may be in a certain
>resource and where it can be found. It's not a good idea to make enemies
>of the local societies or they will never work with you on anything. If
>this happens in a county, we will usually steer people to the local
>society for more research than what we have from public record. This
>policy has seemed to work well for us so far, since some of those
>societies are now contacting us and wanting to work to either post more
>information or to do more lookups for free themselves. They've found
>that it actually helps to bring in some extra finances in the long run.
>Since it's a recommendation, this gives us a little leeway to work on
>relations with the local people if we don't live in the county
>ourselves.

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Tue Apr 09 06:58:36 2002
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Subject: RE: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
At 01:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, Cheryl Rothwell wrote:


>Should the county that is home to the state capitol be required to list
>all the state facilities there?

I would say no.  That would be more for the SCs to list.  However, the 
county where the capitol is located should have its own local resources 
separate from state offices, such as a county courthouse, 
genealogical/historical society, public library, etc.  The LCs could list 
state resources if they wish, but I agree that this should not be required.

-Teresa

>Cheryl

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 02:07 AM 4/8/02 -0600, W David Samuelsen wrote:

>Local Resources
>
>required:
>government sites pertaining to the county/state
>
>strong recommended:
>local societies/clubs if they are in good standing as determined
>by the LCs themselves.
>
>encouragement of recommends:
>link in separate page, to sites covering bed/breakfast inns,
>local historic sites.

I am in basic agreement with this except that I would recommend adding 
local societies regardless of their "standing" (not really sure what David 
means by that anyways <g> ).  Our job as LCs is to provide our visitors 
with as comprehensive a resource for our county/city/township/etc as 
possible and we are not in competition with the local societies.  I don't 
live in my counties and can't go off there to do research for myself or 
others, so I am happy to provide contact info for both the genealogical and 
historical societies, even though in one of my counties the local gen 
society is very wary of USGenWeb.  When visitors come to our pages they 
should find this information
regardless of how we feel about the society or the society feels about us.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Apr 10 19:19:34 2002
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Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local resources
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<x-flowed>
Good morning,

7 of the 10 of us have responded that "Local Resources" should be a 
required page or section of a USGenWeb website.

Now we should discuss items to suggest LCs provide contact information 
for.  The reason I say "suggest" is that some websites won't necessarily be 
county sites, so requiring something specific like "county courthouse" 
might not make any sense for them and I don't want the document to be 
rejected because we are requiring people to do something they cannot 
do.  The other option is to add wordage to our recommendation that says 
something to the effect of "if present in your local area you should 
provide contact information for the following:..."  I will work up some 
wording for the working document shortly and we can discuss how best to 
address this.

Here are my suggestions:

County court house---strongly recommended/required
Public library--strongly recommended/required
Genealogical society--strongly recommended/required
Historical society--strongly recommended/required
any other relevant government office (like city hall) that might have 
records of genealogical interest--strongly recommended/required

Local churches--encouraged
cemeteries--encouraged
local researchers--encouraged
local newspaper--encouraged

Please add your suggestions to the list!

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
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<x-flowed>
At 07:00 AM 4/10/02 -0400, merope wrote:

Does anyone have any further comments on this?

-Teresa


>Good morning,
>
>7 of the 10 of us have responded that "Local Resources" should be a 
>required page or section of a USGenWeb website.
>
>Now we should discuss items to suggest LCs provide contact information 
>for.  The reason I say "suggest" is that some websites won't necessarily 
>be county sites, so requiring something specific like "county courthouse" 
>might not make any sense for them and I don't want the document to be 
>rejected because we are requiring people to do something they cannot 
>do.  The other option is to add wordage to our recommendation that says 
>something to the effect of "if present in your local area you should 
>provide contact information for the following:..."  I will work up some 
>wording for the working document shortly and we can discuss how best to 
>address this.
>
>Here are my suggestions:
>
>County court house---strongly recommended/required
>Public library--strongly recommended/required
>Genealogical society--strongly recommended/required
>Historical society--strongly recommended/required
>any other relevant government office (like city hall) that might have 
>records of genealogical interest--strongly recommended/required
>
>Local churches--encouraged
>cemeteries--encouraged
>local researchers--encouraged
>local newspaper--encouraged
>
>Please add your suggestions to the list!
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 14 11:35:32 2002
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<x-flowed>
Group,

My mother is in cardiac intensive care again, so I'll be pretty much out of 
touch for the next few days. I'll be checking email, but don't expect to 
see much from me.

Sunny
aka Lorraine


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From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 20:26:56 2002
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From: "Beaufort" <y8g3n2ws@coastalnet.com>
To: "merope" <merope@Radix.Net>
Subject: guidelines.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:16:09 -0400
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Teresa,
about the guidelines...
Instead of directing rules at CCs concerning page content, why not direct
some of the work to the SCs.   Let the SC provide a resource page for
libraries and Societies for all counties that the CCs can then  link to.  It
should would be easier to have all this on one page since most people aren't
just researching one county alone.

Maybe the SCs won't be as likely to gripe as 3000 CCs.
And since the SCs have so much power, they ought to do more work.
Obviously our SC and her three ASCs do nothing.

thanks,
diane


From ???@??? Tue Apr 16 20:43:47 2002
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Subject: Indiana Guidelines for websites
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<x-html>
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/16/2002 12:34:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cjwhan@ligtel.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>From:</B> <A HREF="mailto:UnknownCnty@aol.com">UnknownCnty@aol.com</A> <BR>
<B>To:</B> <A HREF="mailto:InGen@mail.cityofbrazil.com">InGen@mail.cityofbrazil.com</A> <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 15, 2002 8:21 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Purple Floppy Award<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well summer is here this week.&nbsp; Next week who knows.&nbsp; But regardless of the weather I will be reviewing the pages starting the first of May for the Purple Floppy Awards.&nbsp; Results will be out in June.<BR>
<BR>
Here is the lineup of what I'm looking for and the scores.&nbsp; Now the lineup has changed and the scores have changed.&nbsp; The position scoring has also changed from last time.<BR>
<BR>
Have a wonderful week and good luck.<BR>
<BR>
CRITERIA<BR>
Where to find Vitals for County 20<BR>
USGenWeb Logo Prominently Displayed 15<BR>
INGenWeb Logo Prominently Displayed 15<BR>
Pleasing Layout&nbsp;&nbsp; (5-10-15) 15<BR>
Ease of Navigation (5-10-15) 15<BR>
Social Security Death Index 15<BR>
Link or address for Local Library 15<BR>
Link to list of INGenWeb Counties or State Page 10<BR>
Correct State Coordinator 10<BR>
Correct State Coordinator address 10<BR>
Link to USGenWeb 10<BR>
Link to Unknown County Page 10<BR>
Links to Neighboring Counties 10<BR>
Indiana Marriages Before 1850 10<BR>
Additional online Data-Misc 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Birth 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Marriage 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Death 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Census 1850 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Census 1900 10<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Census others (5 each) 5<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Census Index (5 each) 5<BR>
Cemetery interments online 10<BR>
Other Useful Reference Links 10<BR>
Surname Page 10<BR>
Learning Links for beginners 10<BR>
Access to Queries 10<BR>
Useful Lookup Page 5<BR>
Link or address for Local Historical/Genealogical&nbsp; Soc 5<BR>
Bios linked to Correct Page 5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">(Since GenConnect changed, many pages haven't adjusted the bio, obit, bible, pension etc links to link with the main query page through that system)</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Obits lined to Correct Page 5<BR>
Search Engine for County Page 5<BR>
<BR>
PLACING SCORES<BR>
300 and Above 1<BR>
285 - 299 2<BR>
270 - 284 3<BR>
255 - 269 4<BR>
240 - 254 5<BR>
225 - 239 6<BR>
210 - 224 7<BR>
195 - 209 8<BR>
180 - 194 9<BR>
165 - 179 10<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl Zufall Parker&nbsp; -|---<BR>
INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator<BR>
www.ingenweb.net/unknown/<BR>
INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator<BR>
www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm<BR>
INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator<BR>
www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm<BR>
Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator<BR>
www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html<BR>
Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator<BR>
www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG, (http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com)<BR>
~~<BR>
Coordinator, Churchill Nevada USGenWeb Site<BR>
Co-Coordinator, Inmontgo-L, Montgomery County, Indiana, USGenWeb Site<BR>
<BR>
Visit the proposed USGW Project bylaws at:<BR>
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nvchurch/proposedbylawschanges.htm</FONT></HTML>

</x-html>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 14 09:07:25 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] Guidelines Committee, report for the week ending 4/13/2002
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<x-flowed>
GUIDELINES COMMITTEE WEEKLY REPORT, for the week ending April 13 2002

===

On April 7, the weekly report was submitted to the Project.  A comment was 
received from a member who suggested that in considering the requirement of 
a local resources listing the committee is overstepping its bounds and that 
long-term members of the Project will object.  This comment was discussed 
by the Committee and the members are in general agreement that the 
Guidelines Committee may need to recommend changes that go beyond the 
original requirements for the betterment of the Project as a whole.  An 
additional comment discussing the lookups recommendation was received; the 
correspondent agreed that lookups should remain a recommendation and not a 
requirement.

-

Local Resources:  The Committee continued to discuss this issue and decided 
that a page or section providing contact information for local resources 
should be a required part of a project website.  The Committee is still 
discussing specific items to require or suggest for inclusion.

===

The current version of the working document is posted 
at:  http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt

Please address comments to Teresa Lindquist <merope@radix.net>

-Teresa Lindquist
Chair, Guidelines Committee
Representative At Large, USGenWeb Project
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Sun Apr 14 11:35:32 2002
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<x-flowed>
I have posted a new version of the working document at 
http://www.radix.net/~merope/lcguide.txt  to reflect our decision to 
require a page or section listing contact information for local resources.

-Teresa


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From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 06:51:52 2002
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<x-flowed>
A comment from a Board member for your consideration.

-Teresa

>Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:22:55 -0600
>X-Original-Sender: bremerr@oclc.org Sun Apr 14 09:22:54 2002
>From: "Bremer,Robert" <bremerr@oclc.org>
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>    "'BOARD-L@rootsweb.com'" <BOARD-L@rootsweb.com>
>Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:22:39 -0400
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>
> >From the Guidelines Committee weekly report:
>
>On April 7, the weekly report was submitted to the Project.  A comment was
>received from a member who suggested that in considering the requirement of
>a local resources listing the committee is overstepping its bounds and that
>long-term members of the Project will object. ... Local Resources:  The
>Committee continued to discuss this issue and decided that a page or section
>providing contact information for local resources should be a required part
>of a project website.  The Committee is still discussing specific items to
>require or suggest for inclusion.
>
>My response:
>
>While a number of CCs would see such a requirement in a positive light, I
>think that a requirement as opposed to a recommendation will mostly
>definitely cause a lot of turmoil with some people yet again leaving the
>Project.
>
>A few years ago, several of us within OHGenWeb suggested that in a review of
>our state requirements that we might begin looking at requiring just a
>couple of additional items in connection with local resources.  All 88
>counties have public libraries, courthouses, and a chapter of the Ohio
>Genealogical Society--so why not add a simple requirement to list their
>addresses--what harm could there be in listing an address?
>
>A number of CCs were very, very much opposed to this as a requirement.  The
>discussion on the state list in connection with this issue was unlike
>anything before or since, and almost no one voted in favor of the proposal.
>My interpretation of the main objection is that CCs have a better handle on
>local resources, what works and what does not work in gaining access to
>genealogical and historical information.  They have an awareness of the turf
>wars that seem to go on between local societies, public libraries, and
>courthouse staff, so the local CCs should be the ones to decide what is
>appropriate to list, what not to list, without any sort of mandate from
>their state.  I have come to agree with this perspective.  I think what we
>did at our state level was a necessary, perhaps painful, experiment, but I
>am certain that a mandate from the national level will play out even worse.
>
>What I think is needed here are solely recommendations.
>
>I might add that in polling CCs last summer, a number of people responded
>complaining about a lack of guidance within their state for new CCs.  They
>felt lost, not certain who to talk to, and not completely certain about what
>to put on their respective pages.
>
>This may be beyond the scope of the current committee to do, but something
>for the committee to possibly recommend would be the selection of a group to
>set up and, mostly importantly, maintain a more detailed CC help site with
>an extended, comprehensive outline of what one could include on a local
>website with links to examples.  The idea is not to interfere with any new
>CC training programs that some states might have in place but to supplement
>that information with a list and examples that will trigger ideas for CCs.
>Perhaps a mentoring program that pairs new CCs with experienced CCs who
>volunteer might have some benefit.
>
>I think the results that we're all looking for here are better websites.
>Encouragement via help pages and discussion will go a lot further to
>accomplish that than additional requirements for which some CCs feel they
>will be policed.
>
>Robert Bremer
>bremerr@oclc.org

</x-flowed>
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From: Don Tharp <dontharp@onemain.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: [BOARD-L] RE: Guidelines Committee,
   report for the week ending 4/13/2002
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Using the cliche that many use, I will ask, is the USGW P here to satisfy
the CCs, or are we maintaining websites to really help the researchers? I
believe we should be doing all we can at our local web sites to help the
researcher. Why else would they come to our local sites? Requiring a web
page of readily available information and posting it to our pages is very
little to ask of CCs who are dedicated to helping researchers.

So, I feel the resource page should stand as a requirement.

Don


At 11:37 AM 4/14/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>A comment from a Board member for your consideration.
>
>-Teresa
>
>>Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:22:55 -0600
>>X-Original-Sender: bremerr@oclc.org Sun Apr 14 09:22:54 2002
>>From: "Bremer,Robert" <bremerr@oclc.org>
>>Old-To: "'USGENWEB-ALL-L@rootsweb.com'" <USGENWEB-ALL-L@rootsweb.com>,
>>    "'BOARD-L@rootsweb.com'" <BOARD-L@rootsweb.com>
>>Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:22:39 -0400
>>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
>>Subject: [BOARD-L] RE: Guidelines Committee, report for the week ending 
>>4/13/2002
>>To: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-From: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Reply-To: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>X-Mailing-List: <BOARD-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/9052
>>X-Loop: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-Sender: BOARD-L-request@rootsweb.com
>>
>> >From the Guidelines Committee weekly report:
>>
>>On April 7, the weekly report was submitted to the Project.  A comment was
>>received from a member who suggested that in considering the requirement of
>>a local resources listing the committee is overstepping its bounds and that
>>long-term members of the Project will object. ... Local Resources:  The
>>Committee continued to discuss this issue and decided that a page or section
>>providing contact information for local resources should be a required part
>>of a project website.  The Committee is still discussing specific items to
>>require or suggest for inclusion.
>>
>>My response:
>>
>>While a number of CCs would see such a requirement in a positive light, I
>>think that a requirement as opposed to a recommendation will mostly
>>definitely cause a lot of turmoil with some people yet again leaving the
>>Project.
>>
>>A few years ago, several of us within OHGenWeb suggested that in a review of
>>our state requirements that we might begin looking at requiring just a
>>couple of additional items in connection with local resources.  All 88
>>counties have public libraries, courthouses, and a chapter of the Ohio
>>Genealogical Society--so why not add a simple requirement to list their
>>addresses--what harm could there be in listing an address?
>>
>>A number of CCs were very, very much opposed to this as a requirement.  The
>>discussion on the state list in connection with this issue was unlike
>>anything before or since, and almost no one voted in favor of the proposal.
>>My interpretation of the main objection is that CCs have a better handle on
>>local resources, what works and what does not work in gaining access to
>>genealogical and historical information.  They have an awareness of the turf
>>wars that seem to go on between local societies, public libraries, and
>>courthouse staff, so the local CCs should be the ones to decide what is
>>appropriate to list, what not to list, without any sort of mandate from
>>their state.  I have come to agree with this perspective.  I think what we
>>did at our state level was a necessary, perhaps painful, experiment, but I
>>am certain that a mandate from the national level will play out even worse.
>>
>>What I think is needed here are solely recommendations.
>>

>>I might add that in polling CCs last summer, a number of people responded
>>complaining about a lack of guidance within their state for new CCs.  They
>>felt lost, not certain who to talk to, and not completely certain about what
>>to put on their respective pages.
>>
>>This may be beyond the scope of the current committee to do, but something
>>for the committee to possibly recommend would be the selection of a group to
>>set up and, mostly importantly, maintain a more detailed CC help site with
>>an extended, comprehensive outline of what one could include on a local
>>website with links to examples.  The idea is not to interfere with any new
>>CC training programs that some states might have in place but to supplement
>>that information with a list and examples that will trigger ideas for CCs.
>>Perhaps a mentoring program that pairs new CCs with experienced CCs who
>>volunteer might have some benefit.
>>
>>I think the results that we're all looking for here are better websites.
>>Encouragement via help pages and discussion will go a lot further to
>>accomplish that than additional requirements for which some CCs feel they
>>will be policed.
>>
>>Robert Bremer
>>bremerr@oclc.org
> 


From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 06:51:52 2002
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I know all that is true. I have to wonder [and I wonder this a lot] --
what are people doing in the project if they aren't interested in
providing as much information as they can? It seems to me some people
want to have their own turf, want no rules, requirements or even
recommendations, but want to say they are part of the project. 

I like the idea of a help page which makes a lot of suggestions that
they can use or not use -- but not as a substitute for some basic
requirements.

Cheryl


From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 06:51:52 2002
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Turf wars are not our problem.  All local resources that hold the information 
a researcher needs, needs to be listed and should be required.  If a 
researcher asks my opinion of which one is best to visit fist, I will give 
them my opinion.  

In Indiana I judged a top ten award for the Indiana Counties.  For this I 
search every county page (93) for specific information.  Some of the items on 
the list are those items required by USGenWeb and others are what I want to 
see on a good page.  Out of 93 counties 22 didn't list where vitals could be 
found in their county, 16 didn't list any library in the county, and 17 
didn't list any historical or genealogical society.
Now the historical and genealogical they may not have and it is a low scoring 
item.  But they should list where vital records can be found for their county 
and if there is a library with genealogical information.  Even if my county 
had nothing I think I would put on my web page that we have no resources.  At 
least then the visitor would know.

So are we afraid that LC's are going to get upset and quit because we require 
them to list what they probably already have on their pages.  Over the years 
I've noticed that LC's tend to get in a snit over the most innocuous things.

If we as a committe are afraid or the board is afraid, then why are they 
trying to change anything?  There will always be squeaky wheels who want 
nothing to change.  Do our guidelines serve the researcher or pander to the 
LC?

Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html



From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 06:51:52 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] Fwd: [BOARD-L] RE: Guidelines Committee,
   report for the week ending 4/13/2002
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<x-flowed>
I still think we should require the page. We're not specifying what 
resources they should include. We're just saying they should have a page of 
resources. If the local society is in turmoil and they decide not to list 
them, that's their decision. We just said there should be a page, not 
exactly what should be on it.

Morgan

At 11:37 AM 4/14/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>A comment from a Board member for your consideration.
>
>-Teresa
>
>>Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:22:55 -0600
>>X-Original-Sender: bremerr@oclc.org Sun Apr 14 09:22:54 2002
>>From: "Bremer,Robert" <bremerr@oclc.org>
>>Old-To: "'USGENWEB-ALL-L@rootsweb.com'" <USGENWEB-ALL-L@rootsweb.com>,
>>    "'BOARD-L@rootsweb.com'" <BOARD-L@rootsweb.com>
>>Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:22:39 -0400
>>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
>>Subject: [BOARD-L] RE: Guidelines Committee, report for the week ending 
>>4/13/2002
>>To: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-From: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Reply-To: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>X-Mailing-List: <BOARD-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/9052
>>X-Loop: BOARD-L@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-Sender: BOARD-L-request@rootsweb.com
>>
>> >From the Guidelines Committee weekly report:
>>
>>On April 7, the weekly report was submitted to the Project.  A comment was
>>received from a member who suggested that in considering the requirement of
>>a local resources listing the committee is overstepping its bounds and that
>>long-term members of the Project will object. ... Local Resources:  The
>>Committee continued to discuss this issue and decided that a page or section
>>providing contact information for local resources should be a required part
>>of a project website.  The Committee is still discussing specific items to
>>require or suggest for inclusion.
>>
>>My response:
>>
>>While a number of CCs would see such a requirement in a positive light, I
>>think that a requirement as opposed to a recommendation will mostly
>>definitely cause a lot of turmoil with some people yet again leaving the
>>Project.
>>
>>A few years ago, several of us within OHGenWeb suggested that in a review of
>>our state requirements that we might begin looking at requiring just a
>>couple of additional items in connection with local resources.  All 88
>>counties have public libraries, courthouses, and a chapter of the Ohio
>>Genealogical Society--so why not add a simple requirement to list their
>>addresses--what harm could there be in listing an address?
>>
>>A number of CCs were very, very much opposed to this as a requirement.  The
>>discussion on the state list in connection with this issue was unlike
>>anything before or since, and almost no one voted in favor of the proposal.
>>My interpretation of the main objection is that CCs have a better handle on
>>local resources, what works and what does not work in gaining access to
>>genealogical and historical information.  They have an awareness of the turf
>>wars that seem to go on between local societies, public libraries, and
>>courthouse staff, so the local CCs should be the ones to decide what is
>>appropriate to list, what not to list, without any sort of mandate from
>>their state.  I have come to agree with this perspective.  I think what we
>>did at our state level was a necessary, perhaps painful, experiment, but I
>>am certain that a mandate from the national level will play out even worse.
>>
>>What I think is needed here are solely recommendations.
>>
>>I might add that in polling CCs last summer, a number of people responded
>>complaining about a lack of guidance within their state for new CCs.  They
>>felt lost, not certain who to talk to, and not completely certain about what
>>to put on their respective pages.
>>
>>This may be beyond the scope of the current committee to do, but something
>>for the committee to possibly recommend would be the selection of a group to
>>set up and, mostly importantly, maintain a more detailed CC help site with
>>an extended, comprehensive outline of what one could include on a local
>>website with links to examples.  The idea is not to interfere with any new
>>CC training programs that some states might have in place but to supplement
>>that information with a list and examples that will trigger ideas for CCs.
>>Perhaps a mentoring program that pairs new CCs with experienced CCs who
>>volunteer might have some benefit.
>>
>>I think the results that we're all looking for here are better websites.
>>Encouragement via help pages and discussion will go a lot further to
>>accomplish that than additional requirements for which some CCs feel they
>>will be policed.
>>
>>Robert Bremer
>>bremerr@oclc.org


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:53:16 2002
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From: Don Tharp <dontharp@onemain.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local Resources
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At 07:18 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>

.... Examples of local resources that should be 
>included if available are: county courthouse, public library, genealogical 
>society, and historical society.  You may also provide information on 
>churches, cemeteries, the local newspaper, musuems, or any other locally 
>available resource that may hold material of interest to genealogists."
>
>Let me know what you think!  Suggestions for additional local resources to 
>add to the list are still welcome.
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net
>
I have found that most local funeral directors cooperate very well with
genealogists, perhaps there establishments, name and phone number would be
worthy of inserting in the example also.

Don



From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 07:21:44 2002
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<x-flowed>
At 09:17 PM 4/14/02 -0400, INJohnCo@aol.com wrote:



>If we as a committe are afraid or the board is afraid, then why are they
>trying to change anything?  There will always be squeaky wheels who want
>nothing to change.  Do our guidelines serve the researcher or pander to the
>LC?

I wish I could answer these questions.  Over the last few years, there have 
been calls to "fix" the guidelines and "do something" to improve the many 
pages in USGenWeb that have little on them but a link to an automatically 
managed query board.  Whenever complaints are made about a page that has 
apparently been abandoned for months or years, or that has no content on it 
other than the logo and a query page [all this required under the current 
bylaws and guidelines], or that seems to serve little purpose other than to 
direct visitors to resources for sale, someone somewhere will point to the 
guidelines and say "but they are in compliance, how can they be 
removed?"  Thus the call for improved guidelines...so that USGenWeb itself 
will be improved by a tighter definition of what a good USGenWeb contains.

However, you have to remember that apart from people being afraid of change 
in general, they are afraid of the project becoming more of a "top-down" 
managed project, with the Board or some other group [perhaps an unelected 
one] "policing" people's page to make sure they are following the 
rules.  USGenWeb has never had a central "page police"; the duty of 
ensuring that the local pages are up to snuff has always been on the 
shoulders of the SCs.  This has caused its own set of problems but other 
than explicitly stating that the SCs should be the ones to monitor the LCs 
I doubt we can fix it.

I was not in favor of making lookups required because that requires 
material and/or volunteers to be available and could potentially put the LC 
and USGenWeb in a legal bind if copyright law is not followed.  However, 
providing a  section of contact information for local sources of resources 
seems to me to be something _every_ LC should be doing.  Its easy (most of 
the info is in the phone book or online directories), it will be of great 
help to visitors, and it will vastly improve the "autopilot" pages.  I 
think we have made the right decision in recommending this section be required.

-Teresa

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 07:21:44 2002
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Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local Resources
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<x-flowed>
Here is some proposed text for the section on Local Resources:

"Each Local Coordinator is required to provide a page or section listing 
contact information for local resources as part of their USGenWeb 
site.  "Local Resource" is defined as a place located in or near the area 
covered by the webpage and contact information should include an address, 
telephone number, email address and/or website, if 
available.  Additionally, you may provide information on the type of 
records held by each resource. Examples of local resources that should be 
included if available are: county courthouse, public library, genealogical 
society, and historical society.  You may also provide information on 
churches, cemeteries, the local newspaper, musuems, or any other locally 
available resource that may hold material of interest to genealogists."

Let me know what you think!  Suggestions for additional local resources to 
add to the list are still welcome.

-Teresa
merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:53:15 2002
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I like it.


> "Each Local Coordinator is required to provide a page or section listing 
> contact information for local resources as part of their USGenWeb 
> site.  "Local Resource" is defined as a place located in or near the area 
> covered by the webpage and contact information should include an address, 
> telephone number, email address and/or website, if 
> available.  Additionally, you may provide information on the type of 
> records held by each resource. Examples of local resources that should be 
> included if available are: county courthouse, public library, genealogical 
> society, and historical society.  You may also provide information on 
> churches, cemeteries, the local newspaper, musuems, or any other locally 
> available resource that may hold material of interest to genealogists."


Cheryl Zufall Parker  -|---
INGenWeb Johnson County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/johnson/index.htm
INGenWeb Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/bartholomew/index.htm
INGenWeb Unknown County Coordinator
www.ingenweb.net/unknown/index.htm
Indiana Biographies, Johnson County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~injohnso/jcbiopage.html
Indiana Biographies, Bartholomew County Coordinator
www.rootsweb.com/~inbartho/bios/bcbiopage.html






From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:53:16 2002
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From: Morgan Edward Johnson <morgan@usroots.com>
Subject: Re: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local Resources
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<x-flowed>
Do we have to say that the definition of Local Resource is " . . . a place 
located in or near . . . "
I'm not sure how to change it, but something along the lines of, "a place 
that possibly holds records for the area covered by the webpage."
I only add this comment because what if an LC knows of an archives-type 
location 100 miles away that has a great section on the area their webpage 
covers.

Morgan

At 07:18 AM 4/15/02, you wrote:
>Here is some proposed text for the section on Local Resources:
>
>"Each Local Coordinator is required to provide a page or section listing 
>contact information for local resources as part of their USGenWeb 
>site.  "Local Resource" is defined as a place located in or near the area 
>covered by the webpage and contact information should include an address, 
>telephone number, email address and/or website, if 
>available.  Additionally, you may provide information on the type of 
>records held by each resource. Examples of local resources that should be 
>included if available are: county courthouse, public library, genealogical 
>society, and historical society.  You may also provide information on 
>churches, cemeteries, the local newspaper, musuems, or any other locally 
>available resource that may hold material of interest to genealogists."
>
>Let me know what you think!  Suggestions for additional local resources to 
>add to the list are still welcome.
>
>-Teresa
>merope@radix.net

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:53:16 2002
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From: "Cheryl Rothwell" <LoganCty@mindspring.com>
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If you spell it museums I'll agree. <g>

If we did an addition help page we could be more specific, discuss more
resources that MIGHT be available, etc. Some counties have Family
History Centers for example. I'm sure we can think of more -- on the
help page I'd even agree to lists of places to stay [without comment] as
a suggestion, particularly in small counties where there may only be
five or six of them and the Chamber is probably worthless.

Cheryl Rothwell

-----Original Message-----
From: merope [mailto:merope@Radix.Net] 
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:19 AM
To: USGW-GUIDELINES-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: [USGW-Guidelines] TOPIC: Local Resources


Here is some proposed text for the section on Local Resources:

"Each Local Coordinator is required to provide a page or section listing

contact information for local resources as part of their USGenWeb 
site.  "Local Resource" is defined as a place located in or near the
area 
covered by the webpage and contact information should include an
address, 
telephone number, email address and/or website, if 
available.  Additionally, you may provide information on the type of 
records held by each resource. Examples of local resources that should
be 
included if available are: county courthouse, public library,
genealogical 
society, and historical society.  You may also provide information on 
churches, cemeteries, the local newspaper, musuems, or any other locally

available resource that may hold material of interest to genealogists."

Let me know what you think!  Suggestions for additional local resources
to 
add to the list are still welcome.

-Teresa
merope@radix.net



From ???@??? Mon Apr 15 10:53:16 2002
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