Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:46:25 -0800 From: "Kay Mason" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <199812072349.PAA31159@mail.networkone.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Resignation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bob, as I recall, (correct me someone if I"m wrong) but I think that Beth works nights.. maybe we should wait until tomorrow morning to give her a chance to read her mail.. Kay Date forwarded: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:43:05 -0800 (PST) Date sent: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:31:35 -0500 From: Bob Bamford Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Resignation To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Forwarded by: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Send reply to: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com > Beth, I know you sometimes work hours that don't necessarily coincide with > the rest of us so may not have read the many messages asking you to > reconsider. You can stop the process below by speaking up. We do need to > plan for an election if you don't reconsider. > > Board: I will entertain a motion (on board-l) to accept Beth's resignation > with no replacement being selected due to the imminnent election at which > time a replacement will be selected. > > Bob > > P.S. If Beth reconsiders in the meantime, we can simply vote o to her > resignation. > > Bob > USGenWeb Census Project http://www.usgenweb.org/census/ http://www.usgenweb.com/census http://www.usgenweb.net/census/ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:05:37 -0500 From: Holly Timm To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981207000537.03efbbd0@mail.bright.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Ooops! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The link is and has been correct on the table of state links so I don't know what he is referring to, I know cause I couldn't remember the new one and wnet there the other day. At 11:37 PM 12/6/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Ooops! Can we catch this before it escalates. IE: goes to the ALL >list > >Subject: [KYGEN-L] Question > Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:02:51 -0800 (PST) > Resent-From: KYGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:07:09 -0800 > From: "Patrick Hays" > To: KYGEN-L@rootsweb.com > > >Has USGenWeb not been informed of the KYGenWeb State Page moving? Why are >they still linking to the old page? Is anybody home there? > >Patrick Hays > > Holly Timm SE/MidAtlantic CC Representative Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:09:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Celia G. Snyder" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Zwhatever Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone have any idea what in blue blazes this person is talking about? Must have something to do with the Special Projects, but which one? Do you suppose this is just someone who didn't find gr-gr-grandma Smith in the archives and is p-o'd? Should I respond or just ignore? Thanks! Celia >Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:49:00 -0800 >From: Larry Price >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cgsnyder@uiuc.edu >Subject: Zwhatever >X-URL: http://www.usgenweb.org/projects/projects.html > >I have read 50% on the info on your new system of noninformation. I >don't understand it at all. What is it, how does it work, does it cost, >what does it provide? It smells. It is too complicated. I am a new >player and I just don't get it. Too technical. What happed to put it >in and get it out easily. Bea Price > ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:20:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Celia G. Snyder" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: Subject: [Board-Exec-L] promotion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This must be the day for difficult messages. I would guess this to be something that the Board should discuss. Celia >X-Lotus-Fromdomain: RANDOMHOUSE >From: "Patricia Damm" >To: cgsnyder@uiuc.edu >Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:13:06 -0500 >Subject: promotion >Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > > >Greetings, > >In Febraury 1999, we will be publishing a book entitled "Finding a Place >Called Home: An African American Guide to Genealogy and Historical >Identity". Your website, The US GenWeb Project, is listed in the book in >the African American Web Sites Index. > >At this time, I'd like to ask if you are willing to help us promote >"Finding a Place Called Home" by featuring the book, or placing an ad >banner on your site. Of course we'd reciprocate any linking between sites. > >Please contact me to discuss this and/or any other promotional >opportunities Random House may have with The US GenWeb Project. My contact >information is as follows: > >Patricia Damm >Asst. Manager New Media Development >Random House, Inc. >(212) 940-7393 >pdamm@randomhouse.com > >I look forward to hearing from you soon. > >Patricia > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Celia G. Snyder, Graduate Programs Coordinator (mailto:cgsnyder@uiuc.edu) Dept. of Mech. and Indus. Engr., University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 140 Mechanical Engineering Building (MC-244), 1206 West Green Street, Urbana, IL 61801 UIUC WEB SITES RELATED TO GRADUATE SCHOOL: UIUC: http://www.uiuc.edu Mechanical and Industrial Engineering: http://www.mie.uiuc.edu Graduate College: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu M&IE Graduate Program Information: http://www.mie.uiuc.edu/academic-programs/graduate/grad.html Financial Aid: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu/financial_aid Off-Campus Housing: http://www.news-gazette.com/ ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:31:26 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207143126.007be860@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Zwhatever Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I G N O R E ! ! ! ! Bob At 01:09 PM 12/7/98 -0600, Celia G. Snyder wrote: >Anyone have any idea what in blue blazes this person is talking about? >Must have something to do with the Special Projects, but which one? Do you >suppose this is just someone who didn't find gr-gr-grandma Smith in the >archives and is p-o'd? Should I respond or just ignore? Thanks! > >Celia > >>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:49:00 -0800 >>From: Larry Price >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>To: cgsnyder@uiuc.edu >>Subject: Zwhatever >>X-URL: http://www.usgenweb.org/projects/projects.html >> >>I have read 50% on the info on your new system of noninformation. I >>don't understand it at all. What is it, how does it work, does it cost, >>what does it provide? It smells. It is too complicated. I am a new >>player and I just don't get it. Too technical. What happed to put it >>in and get it out easily. Bea Price >> > > > ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:33:01 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207143301.007bdec0@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] promotion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:20 PM 12/7/98 -0600, Celia G. Snyder wrote: >This must be the day for difficult messages. I would guess this to be >something that the Board should discuss. > Commercial conection... no! Whose book do we promote next?? Bob >Celia > >>X-Lotus-Fromdomain: RANDOMHOUSE >>From: "Patricia Damm" >>To: cgsnyder@uiuc.edu >>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:13:06 -0500 >>Subject: promotion >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >> >> >> >>Greetings, >> >>In Febraury 1999, we will be publishing a book entitled "Finding a Place >>Called Home: An African American Guide to Genealogy and Historical >>Identity". Your website, The US GenWeb Project, is listed in the book in >>the African American Web Sites Index. >> >>At this time, I'd like to ask if you are willing to help us promote >>"Finding a Place Called Home" by featuring the book, or placing an ad >>banner on your site. Of course we'd reciprocate any linking between sites. >> >>Please contact me to discuss this and/or any other promotional >>opportunities Random House may have with The US GenWeb Project. My contact >>information is as follows: >> >>Patricia Damm >>Asst. Manager New Media Development >>Random House, Inc. >>(212) 940-7393 >>pdamm@randomhouse.com >> >>I look forward to hearing from you soon. >> >>Patricia >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Celia G. Snyder, Graduate Programs Coordinator (mailto:cgsnyder@uiuc.edu) >Dept. of Mech. and Indus. Engr., University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >140 Mechanical Engineering Building (MC-244), 1206 West Green Street, >Urbana, IL 61801 > >UIUC WEB SITES RELATED TO GRADUATE SCHOOL: >UIUC: http://www.uiuc.edu >Mechanical and Industrial Engineering: http://www.mie.uiuc.edu >Graduate College: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu >M&IE Graduate Program Information: >http://www.mie.uiuc.edu/academic-programs/graduate/grad.html >Financial Aid: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu/financial_aid >Off-Campus Housing: http://www.news-gazette.com/ > > > > > ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:07:32 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207180732.007d8710@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Unidentified subject! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The second problem in wA in as many weeks. Is something wrong out there? Would the NW/Plains reps please take a look and let us know. Thanks, Bob __________________________________ Dear Bob, There seems to be no activity with the Spokane County page of the Washington State GenWeb page. Over the course of the last few months, I have e-mailed the County Co-ordinator approximately three times (including submitting a query in Sept. 1998, which has not been posted), and I have received no response. I have also contacted the Wa GenWeb Co-ordinator twice about this matter (Nov. 19 and 29, 1998), and have not heard back from her, either. It was at the suggestion of the neighboring Lincoln County co-ordinator that I write to you. I think that it is not only a shame that the page sits without any updating, but queries cannot be posted, and the links to submitter's e-mail addresses are not working on some of the query pages. Could you possibly look it it? Perhaps there's a really good reason for the inactivity there, but it would be nice if someone would respond to questions about the page. Thank you for any help you may be able to give. Regards, Susan Miller susanm@comtch.iea.com ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:12:00 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207181200.007b94c0@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Solution Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:15 PM 12/7/98 -0800, karen@rootsweb.com wrote: >> It has been suggested that we make the board-l available to be subbed for >> read only. > We had discussed it but currently there are no plans. Thanks for the input. Bob ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:31:35 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207183135.007dd9c0@citrus.infi.net> Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Resignation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Beth, I know you sometimes work hours that don't necessarily coincide with the rest of us so may not have read the many messages asking you to reconsider. You can stop the process below by speaking up. We do need to plan for an election if you don't reconsider. Board: I will entertain a motion (on board-l) to accept Beth's resignation with no replacement being selected due to the imminnent election at which time a replacement will be selected. Bob P.S. If Beth reconsiders in the meantime, we can simply vote o to her resignation. Bob ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:38:26 -0600 From: Trey Holt To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981207203826.0187c870@txcyber.com> Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Solution [all] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob, I think I am pretty much in agreement with you thoughts on these subjects. My only thing to add is that we may want to look at a board secretary somewhere down the line. They could do the report and do the pp stuff. I would like to see the NC more free to work on positive stuff like promoting the project. Trey At 12:53 PM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >I promised to try to come up with some sort of consensus. In some cases, >doing so has changed my mind. > >Here is how I see it NOW: (In each case consensus/update is below the line >for that numbered item.) > >I'd like further comments > >WHEN REPLYING PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJET TO: Solution [ # ] where # is the >item. If all just use all. > >Thanks, > >Bob > > >1. All mention of the -ALL list is removed from the national pages eff. >12/8 (don't want to use 12/7 because of it's potential for historic >reference.) >I can do this. >______________________________________ > >This is almost universal. I will proceed with this. I'll contact Celia in a >separate message. > > >2. Establish a new list: > >USGenWeb-Members-L ist administered by person(s) appointed by board (same >as web master.) > >To accomplish this would require a motion of the board: >a. To establish and >b. To appoint listowner(s) >______________________________________ > >Here we have very mixed responses. Reading through them has caused me to >alter my position to one that seems to conform to the general feeling. > >The main question is do we NEED another list and, as a part of that, should >the board control it. >Firstly, the need for a list to "compete" with the ALL list garners mixed >responses. I am now, pretty much, convinced that a new list would be >redundant, and if sponsored/controlled by the board, as outlined above, >would be seen asa blatant attempt at "top down" management. If individuals >choose to establish a competing list, that is their prerogative. Any new >list should not have board endorsement. > >3. -ALL list is renamed gw-open and let 'em do what they want. (If we're >going to force a name change it should not have a USGW connotation.) >This would require a note from the board to RW stating that the -ALL list >has no connection to the USGW Project and request that they rename. >______________________________________ > >This would be tantamount to the "top down" I alluded to above. The list is >there to serve its stated purpose and, if it's broke, the volunteers should >fix it. It also is "legalized" by the By-laws and for that reason cannot be >changed. It will hopefully evolve into something useful over time. >Meanwhile some statistics of interest: there were, at last count 187 >members of that list; in a survey of 800 messages fully 50 % were posted by >only 8 people. In short, they are talking to themselves and sooner or later >will realize that. > >4. We still go ahead with the "read only" Daily Board Report. > >They would get a Daily report from the board following these lines: > >MOTIONS >Motion, as made and seconded along with voting period. >Results of votes > >TOPICS UNDER DISCUSSION >Items "on the floor" with the board for example: >Discussing improved communication >Discussing complaint about a certain page carrying advertising (no specifics) >etc. > >GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS >Call for volunteers to help with election at state level. >Date for closing of nominations >etc. > >In addition to the ML I would suggest that the last 10, 15 or 30 days >reports, be on a web page on the national site for anyone to visit. This >would replace Celia's posting of votes. > >The intent here, very simply is to develop a line of communication that >makes the -ALL list redundant. As someone suggested, let it die on the vine. >______________________________________ > >It has been suggested that we make the board-l available to be subbed for >read only. I fear this opens the door to later full subbing and the board >list should remain as it is. > >I still feel that our allowing the subscription to a "Board Report" is a >viable option. It gives us a public forum to publish the whole message, not >what merope excerpts and comments on. > >We absolutely need to develop a line of communication directly with the CCs >(at their option) that does not place the communication burden (or option) >on the SCs. > >We even have an list owner (Kathy) to start. > >Bob > > ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:50:00 -0700 From: "Debbie Wafford" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <199812080244.TAA23462@mars.aros.net> Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Resignation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I have been seriously evaluating my priorities and have come to some difficult decisions. I've recently accepted a promotion at work that involves increased responsibilities and more travel. My first loyalty is to my county pages and a couple of personal projects I'm involved in. There is not enough time to do everything. Please accept this as my resignation from the board. Good luck to all of you. Debbie Wafford Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:14:58 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207131458.007bcae0@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Nominee in good standing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:40 AM 12/7/98 -0800, Kay Mason wrote: >We need to think about what a nominee in good standing means.. > >I know that someone (and a SC BTW) has complained to the SC of >one of the nominees for CC rep (not you Kathy). Does this >consititue not being in good standing? I'm sure that this is not the >only instance in which someone has complained about this person. > I agree but... (from the By-laws) "In good standing" is demonstrated by responding promptly to email, actively supporting researchers' efforts to find information, maintaining their website with appropriate, up-to-date content, and serving as a good example of the guidelines and standards of The USGenWeb Project." Other than responding promptly to e-mail, this is very subjective: What is "actively"? What is "up-to-date"? 1 mo. more? less? What is a "good example" I would guess that you could get 1800 answers to the above. I don't think we want to go there... ahhh, but I'd love to :>) Now if the SC who "has complained to the SC of one of the nominees for CC rep has some specific charges to file, it is his prerogative to do so, either with the SC or elsewhere (not here, unless it is a national issue.) Bob ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:15:58 -0800 (PST) From: To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <199812072115.NAA27592@bw-10.rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Solution Content-Type: text > It has been suggested that we make the board-l available to be subbed for > read only. This can be easily done, if desired. Ask me to do it, since I volunteered the information. After I issue three short commands on the mail server, the list would be set such that the only addresses that can post to it are those you set via the listowner's utility page. Simply being subscribed wouldn't be enough. So this would be slightly more work for the list maintainer, when someone joins or leaves the board: besides doing the usual sub/unsub, you would also have to proceed to the "Edit Selected Files" area (button near the bottom of the listowner utility page) and add/delete the address from the "accept list". (You can tell I don't have a promising future in technical writing, LOL! Don't worry, if you opt to set the list up this way an then can't figure out what I just wrote, I'll do a more coherent walk through...) Karen Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 06:43:25 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207064325.007b7100@citrus.infi.net> Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] Ooops! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:19 AM 12/7/98 -0500, Holly Timm wrote: Whichever is right the map and the table go to diff locations. The map goes to a RW location which I suspect is the old one. Bob ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:43:58 -0600 (CST) From: "Celia G. Snyder" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: Subject: Re: [Board-Exec-L] not relevant Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ROTFL!!! Celia At 5:25 PM -0500 12/6/98, Bob Bamford wrote: >At 04:39 PM 12/6/98 -0500, Pam Reid wrote: >>I actually have pretty nice legs! >> >I want everyone to know that I have never seen Pam's legs, or those of >anyone else on the board. My comment was a result of an irresistable urge >to be funny. Based on my, beautiful, wife's constant self-deprecating >remarks about her own appearance, if Pam says she has "pretty nice legs" >they are probably VERY nice legs. > >Someone give this entire dialogue to merope so she can "leak" what the >board talks about in secret. :>) > >Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Celia G. Snyder, Graduate Programs Coordinator (mailto:cgsnyder@uiuc.edu) Dept. of Mech. and Indus. Engr., University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 140 Mechanical Engineering Building (MC-244), 1206 West Green Street, Urbana, IL 61801 UIUC WEB SITES RELATED TO GRADUATE SCHOOL: UIUC: http://www.uiuc.edu Mechanical and Industrial Engineering: http://www.mie.uiuc.edu Graduate College: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu M&IE Graduate Program Information: http://www.mie.uiuc.edu/academic-programs/graduate/grad.html Financial Aid: http://www.grad.uiuc.edu/financial_aid Off-Campus Housing: http://www.news-gazette.com/ ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:40:04 -0800 From: "Kay Mason" To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <199812071642.IAA28110@mail.networkone.net> Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Nominee in good standing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT We need to think about what a nominee in good standing means.. I know that someone (and a SC BTW) has complained to the SC of one of the nominees for CC rep (not you Kathy). Does this consititue not being in good standing? I'm sure that this is not the only instance in which someone has complained about this person. Kay USGenWeb Census Project http://www.usgenweb.org/census/ http://www.usgenweb.com/census http://www.usgenweb.net/census/ ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:53:07 -0500 From: Bob Bamford To: Board-Exec-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981207125307.007b3530@citrus.infi.net> Subject: [Board-Exec-L] Solution Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I promised to try to come up with some sort of consensus. In some cases, doing so has changed my mind. Here is how I see it NOW: (In each case consensus/update is below the line for that numbered item.) I'd like further comments WHEN REPLYING PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJET TO: Solution [ # ] where # is the item. If all just use all. Thanks, Bob 1. All mention of the -ALL list is removed from the national pages eff. 12/8 (don't want to use 12/7 because of it's potential for historic reference.) I can do this. ______________________________________ This is almost universal. I will proceed with this. I'll contact Celia in a separate message. 2. Establish a new list: USGenWeb-Members-L ist administered by person(s) appointed by board (same as web master.) To accomplish this would require a motion of the board: a. To establish and b. To appoint listowner(s) ______________________________________ Here we have very mixed responses. Reading through them has caused me to alter my position to one that seems to conform to the general feeling. The main question is do we NEED another list and, as a part of that, should the board control it. Firstly, the need for a list to "compete" with the ALL list garners mixed responses. I am now, pretty much, convinced that a new list would be redundant, and if sponsored/controlled by the board, as outlined above, would be seen asa blatant attempt at "top down" management. If individuals choose to establish a competing list, that is their prerogative. Any new list should not have board endorsement. 3. -ALL list is renamed gw-open and let 'em do what they want. (If we're going to force a name change it should not have a USGW connotation.) This would require a note from the board to RW stating that the -ALL list has no connection to the USGW Project and request that they rename. ______________________________________ This would be tantamount to the "top down" I alluded to above. The list is there to serve its stated purpose and, if it's broke, the volunteers should fix it. It also is "legalized" by the By-laws and for that reason cannot be changed. It will hopefully evolve into something useful over time. Meanwhile some statistics of interest: there were, at last count 187 members of that list; in a survey of 800 messages fully 50 % were posted by only 8 people. In short, they are talking to themselves and sooner or later will realize that. 4. We still go ahead with the "read only" Daily Board Report. They would get a Daily report from the board following these lines: MOTIONS Motion, as made and seconded along with voting period. Results of votes TOPICS UNDER DISCUSSION Items "on the floor" with the board for example: Discussing improved communication Discussing complaint about a certain page carrying advertising (no specifics) etc. GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS Call for volunteers to help with election at state level. Date for closing of nominations etc. In addition to the ML I would suggest that the last 10, 15 or 30 days reports, be on a web page on the national site for anyone to visit. This would replace Celia's posting of votes. The intent here, very simply is to develop a line of communication that makes the -ALL list redundant. As someone suggested, let it die on the vine. ______________________________________ It has been suggested that we make the board-l available to be subbed for read only. I fear this opens the door to later full subbing and the board list should remain as it is. I still feel that our allowing the subscription to a "Board Report" is a viable option. It gives us a public forum to publish the whole message, not what merope excerpts and comments on. We absolutely need to develop a line of communication directly with the CCs (at their option) that does not place the communication burden (or option) on the SCs. We even have an list owner (Kathy) to start. Bob